Because that was a long time ago and the last Honda engine in F1 was hardly spectacular.
McLaren to switch to Honda engines
- Thread starter Brogan
- Start date
Kewee
Race Winner
no-FIAt-please......There was nothing wrong with the Honda powerplant, there was plenty wrong with the chassis of the car it was fitted to and the way the team was being run. Honda wasn't the problem. 
Kewee - The last Honda engine was terrible, Jenson Button stated he was instantly far more impressed with the Mercedes engine when Brawn switched in '09. He said it was far more driveable and predictable, and obviously more powerful.
McLaren would be mad to switch, at least until the engine had been tried and tested with a 'lesser' team.
McLaren would be mad to switch, at least until the engine had been tried and tested with a 'lesser' team.
Il_leone
World Champion
Kewee
Honda originally wanted to run their own team but the sudden death of Dr Harvey Postlewhaite meant the plan was abandoned much to the chagrin of the other teams expecting a windfall from their entry
Then BAR came along and struck an engine deal -- BAR originally thought they had exclusivity to the engines but embarassingly it was as far as helping to design the chassis as Honda also provided the same engines to Jordan in 2001 upgrading from Mugen Honda
Partly because to support Takuma Sato into F1...
the engine deal only lasted two years as Honda were left floundering behind Ferrari, BMW and Mercedes in power stakes and not getting the results they were expecting - 2 podiums from BAR in those two years
a decision was made to ditch Jordan in order to concentrate on one team to extract maximum results
--------------------
Honda do not have a good record of lending engines to two teams .. Williams HOnda and Mclaren Honda were superior cars to Lotus Honda which was flattered by the genius of Senna in 87 and shown its true abilities in 88 by Piquet
Honda originally wanted to run their own team but the sudden death of Dr Harvey Postlewhaite meant the plan was abandoned much to the chagrin of the other teams expecting a windfall from their entry
Then BAR came along and struck an engine deal -- BAR originally thought they had exclusivity to the engines but embarassingly it was as far as helping to design the chassis as Honda also provided the same engines to Jordan in 2001 upgrading from Mugen Honda
Partly because to support Takuma Sato into F1...
the engine deal only lasted two years as Honda were left floundering behind Ferrari, BMW and Mercedes in power stakes and not getting the results they were expecting - 2 podiums from BAR in those two years
a decision was made to ditch Jordan in order to concentrate on one team to extract maximum results
--------------------
Honda do not have a good record of lending engines to two teams .. Williams HOnda and Mclaren Honda were superior cars to Lotus Honda which was flattered by the genius of Senna in 87 and shown its true abilities in 88 by Piquet
Il_leone
World Champion
Senna's_right_foot
I understand fully where Mclaren are coming from if you look at Red Bull - they are now de facto No 1 Renault team
Ferrari and Mercedes would clearly support their own teams so they had to get an engine supplier that would treat them as No 1 and only Honda look attractive
It is a gamble worth taking if it meant getting free engines and backing of Honda
I understand fully where Mclaren are coming from if you look at Red Bull - they are now de facto No 1 Renault team
Ferrari and Mercedes would clearly support their own teams so they had to get an engine supplier that would treat them as No 1 and only Honda look attractive
It is a gamble worth taking if it meant getting free engines and backing of Honda
Although there's no mention of the Honda engine in this link, I think it bears importance to this thread. Bear in mind much won't have changed since 2009 because of the development freeze, so it should still be quite accurate.
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2009/11/analysis-of-f1-engine-performance-in-2009/
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2009/11/analysis-of-f1-engine-performance-in-2009/
Il_leone
World Champion
I should say I think Mclaren had a say in who had Mercedes engines because it was a 50-50 split decision making process between the two at the time therefore Mclaren had the right to veto Red Bull and Williams who were considering Mercedes engines
Off course what Mclaren or should I say Whitmarsh not realised the success of Brawn gave Mercedes an opportunity to buy and start their own team
Part of that deal was Mclaren got $500m in cash and I think it separated the two because Mercedes sold their controlling stake which was 40% back to Mclaren or Ron Dennis in this case with the engine deal until 2015
I had not realised until the last year that Mclaren had to pay engines and had options for 2014 and 2015
Therefore it makes sense for Mclaren to get an engine supplier that will give free engines
Off course what Mclaren or should I say Whitmarsh not realised the success of Brawn gave Mercedes an opportunity to buy and start their own team
Part of that deal was Mclaren got $500m in cash and I think it separated the two because Mercedes sold their controlling stake which was 40% back to Mclaren or Ron Dennis in this case with the engine deal until 2015
I had not realised until the last year that Mclaren had to pay engines and had options for 2014 and 2015
Therefore it makes sense for Mclaren to get an engine supplier that will give free engines
I don't think this will happen until 2015 at the earliest and I also don't think that McLaren and Honda can rely on each other because if Mercedes have by far the best engine in 2014 then McLaren will almost certainly continue with them for 2015 (and McLaren may want to delay the decision until it is too late for Honda to start developing their engine).
Honda have to re-enter F1 with the full intention of supplying several teams I think, but assuming again that it's too late for them to be supplying engines in 2014 I think they might have a tough time persuading teams to change their engine supplier in only the second year of the new regulations.
The most likely scenario in my mind is that McLaren stick with Mercedes for 2014 and 2015, Honda supply a couple of midfield/back of the grid teams in 2015 and then McLaren move to Honda in 2016 assuming the engine is competitive.
Honda have to re-enter F1 with the full intention of supplying several teams I think, but assuming again that it's too late for them to be supplying engines in 2014 I think they might have a tough time persuading teams to change their engine supplier in only the second year of the new regulations.
The most likely scenario in my mind is that McLaren stick with Mercedes for 2014 and 2015, Honda supply a couple of midfield/back of the grid teams in 2015 and then McLaren move to Honda in 2016 assuming the engine is competitive.
Well Mercedes must be worried if the deal goes ahead, they'll be Honda engineers going through the engine with a fine tooth comb. If Honda come to the table in 2015 I expect them to have a competitive engine.
Il_leone
World Champion
sushifiesta
If I was Mclaren I would take the gamble in 2015 with HOnda engines because if Mercedes get their engine right they will sooner or later get the factory team sorted once the reshuffle with personnel has sorted itself out
Remember Mclaren are paying around $10m each year to use Mercedes engines .. that is a lot of money which could have been used on development of the car
with Honda engines they will come free and they will get help from Honda engineers because I am sure they are not getting much help from Mercedes engineers and only get the engines leased
Is it in the current regulations that engine suppliers need to supply at least two teams
- currently they are 11 - 3 with MErcedes, 3 with Ferrari, 4 with Renault, 1 with Cosworth
- Ferrari insist they need 3 teams , Renault are happy to do 4 although they stated they originally wanted 2 and it appeared Red Bull and Williams were the preferred although STR may get engines and Willams/ Lotus deals only last till the end of this season
Marussia want new engine partners - sounds like Ferrari
Sauber and Force India have unsure futures about their engine deals too
so there could be a lot of jostling for engine partners in 2014
only teams definite
are
Mercedes
Ferrari
Red Bull
If I was Mclaren I would take the gamble in 2015 with HOnda engines because if Mercedes get their engine right they will sooner or later get the factory team sorted once the reshuffle with personnel has sorted itself out
Remember Mclaren are paying around $10m each year to use Mercedes engines .. that is a lot of money which could have been used on development of the car
with Honda engines they will come free and they will get help from Honda engineers because I am sure they are not getting much help from Mercedes engineers and only get the engines leased
Is it in the current regulations that engine suppliers need to supply at least two teams
- currently they are 11 - 3 with MErcedes, 3 with Ferrari, 4 with Renault, 1 with Cosworth
- Ferrari insist they need 3 teams , Renault are happy to do 4 although they stated they originally wanted 2 and it appeared Red Bull and Williams were the preferred although STR may get engines and Willams/ Lotus deals only last till the end of this season
Marussia want new engine partners - sounds like Ferrari
Sauber and Force India have unsure futures about their engine deals too
so there could be a lot of jostling for engine partners in 2014
only teams definite
are
Mercedes
Ferrari
Red Bull
Going back to the KERS and efficiency argument for a moment, the way I understand it is that all the current KERS units recover far more energy than the regs allow them to use so one being more efficient than the other really makes no difference..
Or have I got that wrong?
Or have I got that wrong?
It's about being able to store just the right amount Mephistopheles, so there's no weight issue with carrying around energy that you can't use.
First of all, I need to know how much an energy weighs..
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