Liberty Media buy F1

F1Brits_90

Race Winner
oh yeah should be good ive watched man city documentary that was fantastic viewing & sunderland apparently is very good. if its near that level its going to be brilliant to see all the behind the scenes of F1. which is always secretive
 

Izumi

Banned
Just read that article, what complete and utter bollocks.
You might be right as stated. Problem of course is, since we never were in such situation, there is no precedent to lean on, and therefore no one really knows how this situation will develop, so we speculate, and that's about whole value of it. Teams are of course responsible for mitigating risk they face, and they have to be more proactive than just say - its all b*****s. Situation is present, real, and potentially harmful to the team.
 
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You might be right as stated. Problem of course is, since we never were in such situation, there is no precedent to lean on, and therefore no one really knows how this situation will develop, so we speculate, and that's about whole value of it. Teams are of course responsible for mitigating risk they face, and they have to be more proactive than just say - its all b*****s. Situation is present, real, and potentially harmful to the team.
I don't agree, everybody knows how the situation will develop, border controls will be re-introduced Oh wait a second, the UK was never part of the Schengen Agreement...

nothing will change after Brexit, it's all scaremongering, the rules on the movement of goods and of people to and from the UK won't change, I really don't see what impact the fact that the UK will no longer be subject to the rulings of the ECJ will make to F1.

Just to clarify my view on this matter, I have been an ardent believer of the European project, but that was in the past, now I'd be delighted if Italy decided to leave as well
 

Izumi

Banned
My politics is strongly aligned with Dr. Merkel, which saves me tonnes of babbling sounds trying to explain complex issues. I am a strong believer in federalism, and hopefully birth of United States of Europe, thus instead running away or burning all to the ground, I accept we have to work on it and fix it, just as generations coming after us will do. There is plenty done already which pleases me.

With respect to Mercedes and F1, in worst scenario, my guess is, they will stay where they are until the end of their contractual commitments. That's the Germanic way of handling conflicts, so why this should be any diffefent. Later on they either will leave the series, or if they stay, design and manufacturing works will move on the continent. (Massively speculating of course.)
 
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FB

Not my cup of cake
Valued Member
My comment wasn't really about the pros or cons of Brexit, there are plenty of other places on this website to discuss that, rather the suggestion that F1 teams would leave the UK for the rather spurious reasons suggested in the (very biased) article.

F1 teams are in the UK for historical reasons as this was where most of the teams were born. As a result of that long history, here in the UK a whole eco-system of suppliers has grow up which supply highly specialised parts and services to F1 teams. That infrastructure doesn't exist anywhere else in the world, hence why new teams like Haas built a factory here in the UK as well as in the US. To replicate the infrastructure (both physical and intellectual) which exists in the UK is beyond the scope or financial muscle of any single f1 team or company, even of the size of Daimler Benz.

My son works for just such a company and they will produce single parts, or a few hundred, to tolerances most manufacturing businesses can only dream of. They are just one of many in and around the Northamptonshire/Cambridgeshire/Oxfordshire area.
 

Dartman

Podium Finisher
I am quite sure MB would like a German built car, the cost of shifting the design, car and separate engine factory to Germany would logistically be expensive and time consuming and still not work. Toyota spent a fortune setting up a competition department and factory in Germany, very good for a number of teams to evaluate after Toyota's withdrawal but never produced the goods in F1.
Perhaps it is more to do with the so called muddle through attitude of the British mind and make it work on a low budget, perhaps the McLaren problem is throwing money at a problem with large committees rather than a bunch of people working on a suck it see mentality.
There is no chance of the UK being part of a federal Europe, we don't even have a federal UK, we only just about have a common language and currency.:whistle:
 
F1 teams are in the UK for historical reasons as this was where most of the teams were born. As a result of that long history, here in the UK a whole eco-system of suppliers has grow up which supply highly specialised parts and services to F1 teams. That infrastructure doesn't exist anywhere else in the world, hence why new teams like Haas built a factory here in the UK as well as in the US.
well, a very similar infrastructure exists in another country and if I may spice things up it's the country where the Haas cars is designed, built and developed. Oh that country also designs, builds and develops the PU used by Haas. So Haas is by any mean an Italians car, owned by an American guy who runs it from England ;)

Other than that I agree: when F1 was born the field was made up of a few Italian cars (Alfa Romeo, Ferrari, Maserati) , a couple of French cars (Talbot and Simca, both rather irrelevant), and the rest were British (ERA, Alta, Cooper). Now Renault does something in France, but other than that there are 4 "Italian" teams (Ferrari, STR, Haas and Alfa Romeo) and 6 "English" teams (MB, McLaren, Williams, Renault, Racing Point and RBR).

When F1 was born in 1950 it was based around 2 hubs, one in Northamptonshire/Cambridgeshire/Oxfordshire area the other in Emilia Romagna. In 2019, despite the influx of money from other parts of the world, F1 still has 2 hubs: the Northamptonshire/Cambridgeshire/Oxfordshire area and Emilia Romagna.
 

FB

Not my cup of cake
Valued Member
Fully agree on the Italian hub for F1, and other series. Between the UK and Italy there isn't much else. I'm not sure whether there is much in the US, Indy now uses Dallara chassis but I'm sure Penske used to manufacture their cars in the UK.

I would just say that I do know that some of the Italian F1 teams use UK manufacturers for things such as steering and suspension parts. Oh, and just to throw the cat amongst the pigeons Ferrari used to have an F1 design office in Guildford ;)

The only German thing about the Mercedes F1 team is the money which funds it, and then a big chunk of that comes from Malaysia.
 
Fully agree on the Italian hub for F1, and other series. Between the UK and Italy there isn't much else. I'm not sure whether there is much in the US, Indy now uses Dallara chassis but I'm sure Penske used to manufacture their cars in the UK.

I would just say that I do know that some of the Italian F1 teams use UK manufacturers for things such as steering and suspension parts. Oh, and just to throw the cat amongst the pigeons Ferrari used to have an F1 design office in Guildford ;)

The only German thing about the Mercedes F1 team is the money which funds it, and then a big chunk of that comes from Malaysia.
Ferrari used quite a lot of English suppliers, especially in the past, for composites and for their chassis. At the same time many Englsh teams now use Italian suppliers, for example the new paints used by most F1 teams are from Modena. Obviously the English hub is bigger than the Italian one, but my point was that F1 was born between Northamptonshire/Cambridgeshire/Oxfordshire and Via Emilia and it still revolves around those two areas, there must be a reason if other parts of the world, including mighty industrial countries like Germany and Japan, never managed to challenge England and Italy in such areas
 

Izumi

Banned
...there must be a reason if other parts of the world, including mighty industrial countries like Germany and Japan, never managed to challenge England and Italy in such areas
Yes, there is a reason - lack of interest (in feeding in essence foreign usury type of organization), rather than lack of "special" knowledge that is alledgedly available only in a sacred land.

To suggest that Germany is lacking technological know-how, should they decide to apply themselved to that subject matter, is really soaked with rather monumental lack of perspective about German industry, ignoring racing arenas where German teams got involved, and performed very well.

This is just another case similar to the post-war Marshall Plan fund, when Germany was focusing and spending money on useful activities in life, whereas islanders spend and wasted time and money on empty posturing and self-promotion on global scale. Statements on these pages such as "we (English) producing special tolerances" are really great entertainment. What the heck you guys are thinking that other industrial countries do?

With respect of Mercedes employee demographics, it is very much an international organization with nationalities from around the world (including some Germans, BTW). The truth to be said, a sizable chunk of German population deep in their hearts stop considering in recent times Daimler Benz as a "German company" in pure sense of nation's pride.

Last remark regarding Toyota's F1 adventure while located in Germany. Well, that team was run unfortunately by British managers, many of them even could not speak Japanese or German, did not understand how their force thinks and works, and as in most cases in such situations, it did not end up well. I am aware of late involvement from Japanese side, but that came when already was too late and project was beyond salvation, so, they pulled out. If my memory serves me, there was the other company - you know, located right in the blessed valley - and they too left in shame under quite extraordinary circumstances, suffering heavy financial losses, while comprehensively mismanaged. So, please, do not tell me how inept Germans are. There is plenty at home to be concerned about. There is a story to be uncovered behind all those cases, and nothing is black and while in terms "we are cleaver, and they are stupid".
 
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Dartman

Podium Finisher
That is some jump Izumi, I didn't see any reference or any implication that the Germans were stupid, though there could be a charge that the Japanese have a single track mind and are somewhat protective in their approach to technology in that their way is right despite success eluding them. Volkswagen was a Phoenix resurrected by a British Army Major when the UK car industry failed to appreciate the simplicity of design that made it cheap to manufacture, probably with a large amount of arrogance
 

Izumi

Banned
That is some jump Izumi,...
I am not sure I read you correctly. What are you saying? Volkswagen was not then a brainchild of F. Porsche, but a British somebody in army? That's news for me.
On the other subject, from my experience, I do know Japanese probably in different ways than you do. There could be a book written about that wonderful nation, all in superlatives, however there are unfortunately deeply rooted preconceived notions which are carried in western world, one track mind charge is one of those.
Having said that, I shall now contradict myself and agree, they are stubborn in their due diligence approaches. To explain, western engineers do run as common practice brainstorming sessions, determine feasibility of various options, narrow investigation and move on with it. Japanese colleagues however took often my brainstorming list, and insisted testing thoroughly all ideas on that paper. It was like that then, and it it that way today. Is it one track mind? Depends, I do not mind. (Ever since brainstorming sessions and lists just become shorter.)
 

FB

Not my cup of cake
Valued Member
Well someone has got out of the wrong side of the bed. I NEVER made a suggestion that Germans were "stupid", "inept" or, as far as I can work out, made any derogatory comments about their competence as engineers or as human beings. I would be very grateful Izumi if you would go back and re-read what I posted and then reconsider your rather insulting outburst. The only one stereotyping a nation here is you.
 

sobriety

Pole Sitter
I think it was more a reference that the Germans don't have the skills base to run an F1 team/suppliers skill base to do so.

They do. The reason they don't is why reinvent the wheel when the same skill base is available here at no extra cost?

If it comes to pass that it'll cost more to run a full team and specialist manufacturer base here then I'm sure the teams owned outside of the UK will do a cost-benefit analysis with regard to moving production. To think they won't move if the cost-benefit analysis falls in favour of moving is being totally unrealistic.
 

FB

Not my cup of cake
Valued Member
Again, that wasn't what I said. The skill base may well exist elsewhere but in the UK in particular it is coordinated, dedicated and available to someone wanting to manufacture a prototype. This is very different to the infrastructure required for volume car manufacture, which is what the Germans and Japanese do fantastically well.
 
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Angel

Race Winner
Contributor
The only German thing about the Mercedes F1 team is the money which funds it, and then a big chunk of that comes from Malaysia.
Plus of course Mercedes bought out the Brawn team which was situated in Brackley and doing very nicely thank you. So it made much more sense to stay there with all the suppliers and so on that were already established and good connections. Why move all of that if you don't have to?
 
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