How Good is Sebastian Vettel?

[Il_leone]

mnmracer

This is the legendary Vettel who does not seem to know to pass a HRT twice in one season being in a much faster car and seemingly ready to blame the slower driver

 

[teabagyokel]

Il_leone - I'm being a little facetious, I admit. Having said that, Webber's post European lead over Vettel did owe a lot by Vettel losing the race at his/RBR's most dominant performance of the three years.

I feel Vettel's record would look better had he not lost two certain victories - Korea in 2010 and Valencia in 2012 - which could have eliminated the need for deciders, but I know the other drivers had such issues and ifs.

 

[Il_leone]

mnmracer

I'm talking about Senna/ Berger to teabagyokel's post...if that is who he is referring to ? Senna pretty much thrashed Berger in 1992 in all the races - he was usually the lead Mclaren and by some margin

 

[mnmracer]

ExtremeNinja
You are saying that Lewis won in USA when not having the best wheels.
Other than not being fast in practice or Button being behind, what reasonable reason is there to say the McLaren was not the best wheels in Austin?

 

[mnmracer]

Il_leone
As was Vettel over Webber this year.
You can't claim Vettel was outdone by Webber AND claim Senna was outdoing Berger. It's either/or.

 

[Foaad]

ll_eone would this be the same driver who also got penalised by the stewards after replays showed how he joined the race track and slipped on the kerbs, thereby hitting Vettel's rear tyres all the while as he was looking into his rear view mirrors, (look up sky f1 show from the nxt week after malaysian gp if you want to see the video). NK himself said on bbc that he slipped as he rejoined the track.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

mnmracer

Simple observation. Nothing more and nothing less. Watch the onboard laps, watch the race again. You might not see what I see but it is my opinion that Lewis was much more hooked up than Vettel all weekend and looked like he was trying a lot harder to pull the pace out of the car. It looked to me like the driver was doing a greater proportion of the work in Hamilton's car in comparison to in Vettel's car. Not everything is absolute, mnmracer, and this is my unadulterated interpretation.

Vettel's show of frustration in being beaten in a straight out fight let him down a little, too. He very nearly took himself and Hamilton out of the front of the race that weekend, too. Another indicator that he still needs to work on his temperament which is a furtherfacet by which I judge a driver.

 

[Il_leone]

teabagyokel

Take it from Turkey 2010 when both drivers had the same points and they crashed Webber lead because he finished by 15pts

Canada - Vettel finished ahead of Webber after the team put Mark on the harder tyres in the split strategy

Euro - Webber went airborn whilst Vettel scores a win and jumps ahead of by 12pts

Silverstone - Frontwing gate as Red Bull backs Vettel according and Webber had the longest period of lead until Korea when he crashed

Korea - Seb crashed just as he looked like he had the lead

BRazil - Webber could have benefitted from another 7pts which would have bought him closer to Alonso but Red Bull did not budge... i do wonder if it were the other way whether team orders would have come into it

Abu Dhabi - Red Bull deny they deliberate put Webber on the wrong strategy whilst Vettel does his usual lead from the front to win

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As for 2012

- I see for all Vettel's wins they want to sweep his mistakes which were quite amateurish under the carpet like

his illegal overtake of Button at Hockenheim
his reckless overtaking of a HRT in Sepang
his penalty in Spain for a pit infringement

There were times when he felt the pressure
his desperation cry at Hungary about Button being a roadblock until Mclaren bizarrely pulled Button in on a strange strategy
his anguish at losing the lead in the US

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Foaad

He still hit him, regardless, and it's not like he was difficult to avoid. Vettel gave him no room whatsoever and paid the price. The penalty that was dished out was very much against the general consensus of opinion at the time and probably now.

 

[Il_leone]

mnmracer

Webber has beaten Vettel a few occasions and Seb has shown he does not really like it

Webber outshone Seb at Silverstone and outshone him when the car was not at its best early season

 

[Il_leone]

@Fooad

It is always the driver behind that is at fault for failing to take avoiding action when he is trying to overtake or pass the car in front unless he is being deliberately forced off the road

 

[ExtremeNinja]

I think this thread is the 2nd chapter of this:

http://cliptheapex.com/threads/mark-webber-vs-sebastian-vettel.4869/

You'll love the prequal, mnmracer.

 

[Foaad]

ExtremeNinja I find it difficult to understand how you could hit someone with your rear tyre, I guess by same convention Alonso hit Raikonnen. If you watch the footage where Herbert, the steward, explains the incident you can see he was more than a car width away as Vettel passes and he continues closing in on him until he hits Vettel.

 

[Il_leone]

teabagyokel

I'll agree with you that Seb's record would look better that he wins by a more comfortable margin in the fastest car and not be littered with amateurish errors and penalties

But it still would not stop the argument that it is more down to superior equipment at his disposal

 

[Il_leone]

its always nice to know that whilst one side of the Red Bull garage - Vettel's they make every effort to keep hold of him... Webber's side is always under constant snide remarks from one of the senior bosses - Helmut Marko that he is looking to promote his STR drivers to replace him
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[ExtremeNinja]

simple question with a simple answer. To hit something with your rear tyre would be possible by taking a trajectory that intersects the trajectory of another vehicle. Are you suggesting that, from Vettels point of view, it was unavoidable? I would disagree with that without retraction and instead make claim that not only was it avoidable but also the result of a lack of judgement. The line he was taking was quite clearly intended to be an elbows-out bullying gesture and it back fired. He would have been better to sail past and not give Narain another thought.

 

[Il_leone]

If Seb breaks Schumacher's record whilst staying at Red Bull with Adrian Newey he would be labelled pretty much Schumacher Mk II unless he wins championships

1) In an inferior car
2) Beat a quality teammate on equal terms
3) Show he can lead a team

 

[Slyboogy]

I'll agree with you that Seb's record would look better that he wins by a more comfortable margin in the fastest car and not be littered with amateurish errors and penalties

And yet he's still a three time World Champion.

 

[mnmracer]

ExtremeNinja
A simple observation, right, the easiest way out of being caught out.
So from now on, if I am to make the simple observation that Alonso should have won this year in what was clearly the best car, you are going to take that as a valid opinion as any other?

Il_leone
So you think than too that Berger outshone Senna in 1992?
Afterall, you choose not to look at actual race-performance -where Webber only outperformed Vettel three times, and Berger only outperformed Senna twice- but only at the points.

 

[mnmracer]

If Seb breaks Schumacher's record whilst staying at Red Bull with Adrian Newey he would be labelled pretty much Schumacher Mk II unless he wins championships

1) In an inferior car
2) Beat a quality teammate on equal terms
3) Show he can lead a team

So Alonso is Schumi Mk IIa because he failes conditions 1 and 2?
And Hamilton is Schumi Mk IIb because he fails conditions 1 and 3?