How Good is Sebastian Vettel?

[Mephistopheles]

Which is completely irrelevant.
Vettel was being talked about while in a car that was at the bottom 10er positions.
That's where the current TRs are, yet they're not being talked about.

He was being talked about because he was a Red Bull experiment and being groomed by them so of course he was getting publicity, and how is the cars designer irrelevant to the cars performance?

 

[mnmracer]

ExtremeNinja
If they're not double standards, than why are they never answered when put into question?

If your claim that Lewis and Fernando are winning in not the best car, while Vettel isn't, is not a double standard, why can't you simply answer when the last time is that Lewis won in not the best car? It shouldn't be so hard if it's valid, should it?

 

[Lewywo4]

In my own obviously flawed opinion (Judging by the way I have been shouted down that is.) there are at least six other drivers on the present grid that could do at least as good a job as Vettel has done....

I don't believe that there are 6 other drivers on the present grid, who could have qualified the RB8 as well and as fast as Vettel.
Webber obviously couldn't, and on the other top 2 teams IMO, neither could have Jenson or Felipe, but with Lewis and Fernando...Yes.... and maybe Kimi!

 

[Mephistopheles]

I told you my opinion was obviously flawed and apparently you have just proved it..

 

[mnmracer]

I'm sorry, but why would you share an opinion that you yourself consider obviously flawed?
Did anyone get any better by people sharing their opinion the world would end on December 21st?

 

[ExtremeNinja]

mnmracer.

That's easy. Texas! Do you want some more?

You will of course argue that the McLaren was better than the Red Bull on that day and I of course will disagree with you.

 

[Mephistopheles]

Oh mnmracer I'm sorry have you never heard of Irony?....

 

[mnmracer]

If you consider that winning in not the best car, Vettel won in not the best car in Korea 2011.
How about one where Button was not significantly faster than Webber?

 

[ExtremeNinja]

...and that all opinions by their very nature are inherently flawed - as are people.

 

[Lewywo4]

I told you my opinion was obviously flawed and apparently you have just proved it..

 

[Foaad]

On the topic of not having gone against a good team mate, lets apply them to other drivers, Alonso winning titles against the remarkably quick Trulli and Fisichella, put against a faster team mate and lost championship in atleast as quick if not the fastest car. Lewis won with Kovalainen as team mate, put against Button and ends up 5th in the championship while team mate is 2nd. However they have obviously proven themselves since they had equal WDC points against each other.

 

[no-FIAt-please]

mnmracer

I doubt the Red Bull wasn't the best car at Korea 2011. It was clear that Hamilton was on the edge of really loosing the car in qualifying (I seem to remember him opening the DRS having to correct for oversteer on the last turn), still he only took pole position by around 2 tenths. On race day once Vettel passed Hamilton he comfortably drove away, Webber was also all over Hamilton's gearbox for over half the race, and was incredibly unfortunate not to pass Hamilton. Red Bull was the better package that weekend for me.

 

[Il_leone]

teabagyokel

If you are referring to 1992 when Senna beat Berger by only 1 pt over the season... I think if you break it down in detail Senna was so much faster than Berger when it came the races Senna was usually 30 seconds ahead of him and busy fighting Schumacher and Patrese and occasionally Mansell

He was one of the top 3 drivers that season in terms of performance to equipment , Berger was closer to Senna in the championship but that owed more to retirements Senna had because I don;t remember a race where he looked like beating Senna

 

[ExtremeNinja]

I judge all of the drivers by the same standard and that is by observation of their speed, racecraft, adaptability, and many other attributes.

What is unreasonable is for you to make assumptions that I don't purely because my appraisal leads me to a different conclusion.

 

[teabagyokel]

Yes, let's have less talk of double standards on this thread and a little more respect from all sides please. Both points have valid opinions that can be reasonably backed up and don't need to be rebuked in such a manner. If it doesn't stop soon, this thread will be locked.

 

[mnmracer]

Compare that to how easy Hamilton passed Webber and how easily Hamilton caught up with Vettel in USA, and you'll see the difference is not that big

 

[mnmracer]

Il_leone
Much faster in races but still close in points?
Hmm... sounds a lot like a certain Red Bull team this year.

ExtremeNinja
Your standard for praising Lewis with not winning in the best car is "not topping the practice time sheets yet almost getting pole", or if "winning while his team mate is much further back".
Your standard for praising Sebastian with not winning in the best car is clearly very different, as he has won many a race where he was not topping practice time sheets and has won many a race with his team mate much further back.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

OK. Well at the furthest stretch we can say that the Red Bull and the McLaren were equal in Texas. What happened. Vettel led most of the race from pole and then got beaten to the finish line by Hamilton.

Q: How good is Sebastian Vettel
A: Not as good as Lewis Hamilton

I only use this example as a continuation of the ongoing discussion.

 

[no-FIAt-please]

The fact that Hamilton only passed Vettel when Karthikeyan was thrown into the mix (and while having the DRS advantage) shows that there was little or no difference in pure performance that day.

Korea 2011 doesn't show me this.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

mnmracer

You are now quoting me on things that I have not said.