Ferrari a team in crisis?

[Il_leone]

Its interesting to hear that Alonso is saying Ferrari are having a bad year given their pre season testing form and the strong end to the season last year. This is coming off the back off his comments saying if Vettel continues winning then the title is out of reach. Contrast to last year mid point when he was 47pts down and said he was going to win the world championship winning 4 races in the 2nd half of the season. I read through this week's Autosport covering the mystery round Ferrari's poor showing and am beginning to wonder if the real problem is Luca Di Montezemolo.

Given it was obviously clear that Ferrari's dominance was an amalgamation of Schumacher's workman like ethic off track and on track, Todt's political management, Brawn's discilplined and organised leadership of the engineers, Bryne ability to design Schumacher style cars, Bridgestone favoured tyres along with Ferrari money. It was essential an international team effort. Today's Ferrari team seems to be mostly made of Italians and gone back to its spaghetti culture of political infighting and reacting to the Italian media. Their treatment of designer Aldo Costa was to inform him he was sacked before he was leaving the airport with the team earlier this year where it was seen as reaction to the Italia media "Costa out" via Domenicali giving the word to his friend. It was believed Costa spent too much time looking at blind alleys making small improvemens to the car and not sharing things with the team.
Pat Fry when joining from Mclaren was shocked to find out that their windtunnel was outdated
Alonso apparently is spending more time with the team than Schumacher was to get things together.
The Ferrari seems to be good on tracks that favour mechanical grip rather aerodynamic grip. It was rumoured that ALonso deliberately slowed his pace in Spain down to 3 seconds a lap slowr after the last pitstop to emphasise the true pace of Ferrari

Lets not forget Ross Brawn took a sabbatical in 2007 with the anticipation that he wanted to be the team principal before joining Honda..the subsequent row over the double diffuser where the Ferrari lawyer accused him of "Extreme arrogance" was some reward for the work he done for the team

Plus Todt's feud with Di Montezemolo and Nigel Stepney being overlooked for promotion before spygate

This all seems to point to Luca Di Montezemolo. Thoughts?

 

[Cookinflatsix]

I see the core of your argument, whether Monte is at fault or not the cannot be anything less than superficial change if he remains. Also I believe that the team are already retreating from the Latin dream team concept. Spahgetti culture is a bit harsh and I think was coined by Brawn who had a bone to pick

They need a new leader with a whole new manifesto for change, a ten year plan where they ignore the press clamouring for instant success and target 2013. They need to be willing to let Alonso go as well if the new guy wants a different approach.

It might be that the one driver team centred around a strong figurehead driver like Alonso with a shackled and demotivated second driver has run it's course

Unfortunately I cannot help thinking that instead of overhauling the whole team starting with Monte, Ferrari will continue to panic and pull the trigger with wanton abandon culminating in the hiring of one F Briatore to pacify their star driver

 

[Sarinaide]

I see the core of your argument, whether Monte is at fault or not the cannot be anything less than superficial change if he remains. Also I believe that the team are already retreating from the Latin dream team concept. Spahgetti culture is a bit harsh and I think was coined by Brawn who had a bone to pick

They need a new leader with a whole new manifesto for change, a ten year plan where they ignore the press clamouring for instant success and target 2013. They need to be willing to let Alonso go as well if the new guy wants a different approach.

It might be that the one driver team centred around a strong figurehead driver like Alonso with a shackled and demotivated second driver has run it's course

Unfortunately I cannot help thinking that instead of overhauling the whole team starting with Monte, Ferrari will continue to panic and pull the trigger with wanton abandon culminating in the hiring of one F Briatore to pacify their star driver

Yes to the first that changes are needed, but I see this is not yours nor a few other members first time they have seen Alonso as the problem in all this, if Vettel or Hamilton were in Alonso's seat and the results were the same, would they be seen to be the problem?

A complete boardroom clearout then a tech and engineer cleanout...new designers and the lot are needed mostly for a more motivated and adventurous approach.

 

[Bill Boddy]

.... if Vettel or Hamilton were in Alonso's seat and the results were the same, would they be seen to be the problem?....

I take it that your question is rhetorical.

Currently Ferrari is the third fastest team and have now pulled themselves up to be snapping at McLaren's heels. In my opinion what they need is for Monty to step back and stop interfering in the day to day running of the team. If he is not satisfied with his top managers change them, don't keep on coming out with statements implying denigration of them. Yes, they do need better designers and engineers, but doing a panic clearout will not help the situation. Calm heads and steady nerves should be the order of the day.

I do, however, see why McLaren fans would like Alonso to go, all the more reason that he should stay.

 

[Cookinflatsix]

I do, however, see why McLaren fans would like Alonso to go, all the more reason that he should stay.

Come now Bill, let's say its better for Ferraris chances to have Alonso and Kubica, but Alonso does not want a competitive teammate
What should be done?

 

[Sarinaide]

Come now Bill, let's say its better for Ferraris chances to have Alonso and Kubica, but Alonso does not want a competitive teammate. What should be done?

Did Alonso tell you this or anyone in person?

The media created this illusion that Alonso is someone that wants x, y, an z due to a bad season in 2007 but from what I have seen he has grown up a lot since then and in my honest opinion is anything but the picture that has been painted. I firmly believe people are to easily swayed by what the media say of certain drivers which is holistically inaccurate.

 

[Cookinflatsix]

Admitedly Sarin, we don't know for sure how much veto if any that Alonso has with these issues

However it is obvious that Fernando is a chap who does best when he rules the roost and has no back chat from a teammate, Ferrari like their heros and Fernando is the current

To beat VMM and RBR that might all have to change with a longer term focus on young drivers such as Perez instead of paying top money for a WC who comes with certain demands.

The guys standing in Ferrari and Alonsos way are both young drivers bred by the team who put the team first

Not saying Alonso is a bad driver, just that Ferrari need to rebuild the team with strong foundations and target success not now with quick fix expensive solutions, but later with a robust structure

Do you agree sarin?

 

[MCLS]

Are Ferrari in trouble? Yes
Are Ferrari in crisis? No

While Alonso lies the best part of 100 points behind Vettel and his championship challenge is nearly over for this year, it's not as if he (or Massa) have been lagging around in midfield like in 2009, they were strong in Turkey, Alonso might have won in Monaco but for the red flag and was up at the front in Canada before coming together with Button at turn 3, Massa has had a better season generally as well, but the problems at Ferrari have been exaggerated due to the dominance of Vettel, after all, Alonso is 32 points behind second placed Button and in most recent seasons that gap would mean he would be not far off the top of the championship. But if I were Ferrari I would begin to think about focussing on the upcoming rule changes and make sure they do better in adapting to them than they did for the last seriously major changes in 2009.

 

[landogeorgelewis1]

I wouldn't say Ferrari are a team in Crisis, more like a team going through a transition period. They've moved alot of people in and out of the team in the past few seasons. Their haven't replaced the likes of Jean Todt or Ross Brawn IMHO in recent seasons. But don't worry Ferrari fans i'm sure we'll see Ferrari winning Championships again soon.

 

[MCLS]

Before this escalates, remember this is a thread about Ferrari's problems at the moment, not a thread about Fernando Alonso's team mate, we already have a thread for that.

 

[Sarinaide]

Not saying Alonso is a bad driver, just that Ferrari need to rebuild the team with strong foundations and target success not now with quick fix expensive solutions, but later with a robust structure

Do you agree sarin?

Really at this venture Ferrari need a new approach to car design, new Ideas and innovations in that front, right now both drivers are driving something that is always playing catch up to the RBR and MM.

If you asking me if I think the drivers are the problem I have to say no at this point. What do I hope for the rest of the season, perhaps to get stuck into the second place fight in both CWC and WDC.

 

[Incubus]

To me all these "Ferrari in crisis", "Mclaren's strategy blunders" at some races this year is all over-reactions from fans/detractors of said teams.
To me it's a lot simpler than that. Ferrari and McLaren's source of problems all originate back to the same cause: a balding midle-aged bloke at another team who has reached a level of brilliance unmatched by his peers and has over the last three years designed the grid's fastest two cars, regardless of rules and regulations in place.

 

[Galahad]

I think these days, two bad races in a row is a 'crisis', isn't it? Particularly if you're a headline writer for Autosport.

di Montezemolo has done far, far more good over the years for Ferrari than he has harm. He has repeatedly tried and failed to get Adrian Newey to Maranello. He, let's not forget, plumped for Jean Todt as team manager back in 1993, when Jean had no F1 experience on his CV. But nobody's perfect, and perhaps having to replace Byrne, Brawn and Todt all at the same time was too much change in too short a period.

 

[Slyboogy]

Crisis? Not sure, I just think they are over conservative in the design department, although you can't blame them this year about their car, as the wind tunnel cost them. I also think that Red Bull since 2009-2010 will have an advantage with their car until 2014.

I do agree that Luca is a problem, always has been since 2007, demanding this demanding that, then there's Domenicalli, I don't think he is a right guy to be the leader of Ferrari, he made Aldo Costa take the blame for Ferrari's failure, even though Costa during pre-season came up to Domenicalli with concerns over the wind tunnel information, as their calculations compared to the windtunnels didn't add up as the wind tunnel is out of date.

I do think they are putting too much pressure on their drivers too, think they are a bit deluded by Schumachers time, a different era, they now realise after getting rid of Raikkonen and getting Alonso in, that a driver doesn't develop the car, the team does.

 

[Il_leone]

I've already done another thread on Alonso's teammate

I think people should realise Ferrari have been involved in 3 or the last world drivers championship deciders since Schumacher retired .

It does seem that despite the success Schumacher, Brawn, Byrne, Todt and Stepney bought as a team...Luca wanted to start with a clean slate and preferably have Italian managers running the team. Costa and Domenicalli were internal promotions from within and they came within 2 pts of last years title by bending the rules at Hockenheim. Despite that they still looked for a scapegoat for failure to deliver the title and they demoted or removed Chris Dyer from the team.

Then they sacked Aldo Costa..it appears they or Luca has to be seen in doing something about the crisis and firing someone is the answer to respond to the Italian media- The Italian way to manage things.

I say crisis because Alonso is really toning down expectations and saying start focusing on 2012 and aim for 2nd place this season already despite not being halfway through the season. I am not sure Ferrari insiders want to hear that from him

What has been proven is what a smokescreen pre season testing can be. Ferrari thought they were a match for Red Bull or at least ahead of Mclaren and then got a rude awakening first race

Ferrari will always be at the forefront because of their name and they have the most money of all the teams on the grid with Marlboro and Santander still backing them and has a strong group of engineers

The difference between Mclaren and Ferrari when they are in these crisis situations is Mclaren work through problems in a discilplined and organised manner whereas Ferrari seems to be like panic button and disorganised with complexity of political groups within getting involved. Its only in the period of Todt, BRawn, Schumacher and Byrne era where they managed to be more organised than everyone else

 

[Incubus]

Where did Alonso say anything about focusing on next year or aiming for second this season?

 

[Sarinaide]

I say crisis because Alonso is really toning down expectations and saying start focusing on 2012 and aim for 2nd place this season already despite not being halfway through the season. I am not sure Ferrari insiders want to hear that from him

What has been proven is what a smokescreen pre season testing can be. Ferrari thought they were a match for Red Bull or at least ahead of Mclaren and then got a rude awakening first race

The difference between Mclaren and Ferrari when they are in these crisis situations is Mclaren work through problems in a discilplined and organised manner whereas Ferrari seems to be like panic button and disorganised with complexity of political groups within getting involved. Its only in the period of Todt, BRawn, Schumacher and Byrne era where they managed to be more organised than everyone else

1] I read Alonso's blog this week and he was refering to Ferrari maybe being under but are still alive and kicking, he thinks that with the new designs for the up and coming races Ferrari will be able to genuinely challenge again. Effectively sounding off any suggestion of 2012 focus.......Also, knowing Nando he ain't going to want to race as a formality, he is way to competitive for that to ever happen.

2] McLaren handling things in a civil way....2007 suggested otherwise, they turned against Alonso by the end of the US GP, then the spygate, mr Denis had the decency to accuse Alonso of whistle blowing on McLarens' little Ferrari garage excursion............and in the last couple of weeks the Jens vs Lewy fueds been brewing.

Essentially the point is different strokes for different folks....Ferrari are not McLaren and to them they make decisions that they deem correct.....whether right or wrong is only justified by the immediate and long term results.

 

[teabagyokel]

2] McLaren handling things in a civil way....2007 suggested otherwise, they turned against Alonso by the end of the US GP, then the spygate, mr Denis had the decency to accuse Alonso of whistle blowing on McLarens' little Ferrari garage excursion............and in the last couple of weeks the Jens vs Lewy fueds been brewing.

2007 was an exceptional circumstance as I'm sure you will agree. As I remember, the USGP was when Alonso made a big show of not getting past his team-mate by weaving over to the pit wall. I don't think Alonso helped himself, and quite frankly McLaren could have hurt Alonso far more efficiently if they really wanted to stop him.

What we're talking about is teams that are not in extremis. Ferrari do not seem to accept that they can lose. And when they do lose, they seem to think there is something more significantly wrong than there is.

That is not crisis time. And, by the way, the Button vs Hamilton feuds are in my opinion in exactly the same place as the Alonso vs Hamilton feuds. In the media and on internet forums. Good copy but not necessarily an issue.

 

[sportsman]

I think its important to point out that Luca Di Montezemolo is Chairman of Ferrari S.P.A.
Its his job to promote and sell all Ferrari products including most importantly their road cars.He has every right to demand a better performance from his major marketing tool the Ferrari F1 racing team.

 

[Brogan]

After today's performance, they don't seem to be in too much of a crisis.
Their drivers each finished ahead of a McLaren driver, with one of them getting 2nd on the podium.

After today I would say McLaren have far more to worry about as they seem to have rapidly devolved to the third best team as far as race pace is concerned.