Enough said Button has been head hunted almost since the day he entered F1 how many other drivers can claim that accolade.
Poll Did Merc get what they wanted?
- Thread starter Mezzer
- Start date
Hold on - you're missing my initial point here.
It doesn't matter what has happened so far. That's not the point I'm making because clearly Button has had a better time at McLaren than he would've had at Mercedes, had he decided to stay, in the 2 years he's had at McLaren. That is not in deliberation, that is fact.
What I was saying is that, by 2016, things could have easily changed, right? If Mercedes wins a WDC by 2016 or in 2016, and Button doesn't in that time frame, that makes Mercedes the winner in my books.
I would argue with the statement that his stock has gone up - does anyone really think that if Hamilton didn't have his mishaps Button would've beaten him? Come now. Or think that Button is better than Alonso, Vettel..?
My point - and to make this clear - is that so far, yes, Button has made the right choice. But in 5 years, and Mercedes have won a WDC and Button hasn't, will you still think Button made the right choice?
Well, you could also argue that Button was hardly a loyal member of the team that had worked so hard to win him a WDC..Il_leone said:
The rest of your post makes little sense, I'm afraid Il_Leone..
Wombcat
Podium Finisher
Between now and 2016 a lot of things can happen.
And it isn't really a certainty that if Button had stayed with Mercedes in 2010, he'd still be at Mercedes in 2016. How long would he have stayed by (essentially) the same team then? Something like 10 years (first Honda, then Brawn, then Mercedes)? that doesn't happen that often.
Probably next year is Webbers' last year at Red Bull. Had Button stayed at Mercedes, and Mercedes had in 2012 another year like 2010 and 11, maybe in 2013 he then would have gone to Red Bull. And then in 2015 beat Vettel in the Red Bull and get his 2nd championship with them. Or maybe at that time Vettel would have finally left to Mercedes, because they wanted a german world champion and Vettel wanted to be the one to drive Mercedes to a championship. But the Red Bull was the better car, so Button still got his 2nd WDC. Who's to say?
And it isn't really a certainty that if Button had stayed with Mercedes in 2010, he'd still be at Mercedes in 2016. How long would he have stayed by (essentially) the same team then? Something like 10 years (first Honda, then Brawn, then Mercedes)? that doesn't happen that often.
Probably next year is Webbers' last year at Red Bull. Had Button stayed at Mercedes, and Mercedes had in 2012 another year like 2010 and 11, maybe in 2013 he then would have gone to Red Bull. And then in 2015 beat Vettel in the Red Bull and get his 2nd championship with them. Or maybe at that time Vettel would have finally left to Mercedes, because they wanted a german world champion and Vettel wanted to be the one to drive Mercedes to a championship. But the Red Bull was the better car, so Button still got his 2nd WDC. Who's to say?
It is ludicrous to say that if Mercedes win the WDC by 2016 then Button made the wrong choice we don't know what's going to happen next year let alone the year after that and so into infinity.
What if by joining Ferrari Alonso never wins a WDC we could then say he made the wrong choice, nothing is a given in this world.
We can only deal in what we know and what we know is that Mercedes have underperformed, Jenson has beaten Lewis fair and square in the same team and he has been a match for Lewis since joining McLaren, this may annoy some people but there is simply no decrying it....
And don't start saying yeah but no but because that wont change anything...
What if by joining Ferrari Alonso never wins a WDC we could then say he made the wrong choice, nothing is a given in this world.
We can only deal in what we know and what we know is that Mercedes have underperformed, Jenson has beaten Lewis fair and square in the same team and he has been a match for Lewis since joining McLaren, this may annoy some people but there is simply no decrying it....
And don't start saying yeah but no but because that wont change anything...
You could only say that Button made the wrong choice if Mercedes had a chance of being competitive within 2 years after he left. Mercedes havn't been and therefore he hasn't made the wrong choice. For all we know Button was very analytical in his decision by assessing wind tunnel figures of the 2010 car. He would also have to taken into account that Honda pulled out which not only means little funding went into the W01 (even though Mercedes got the WCC money from '09) but that the team was also going through a re-structuring process. Add to that the team were showing little commitment to Button, from the statements he made it seem the contract didn't represent a world champion's contract.
It's Mercedes' loss in the end. They lost a world champion who's go on to beat possibly the most talented driver on the grid, took on a driver who is held in high regard but has shown no signs of having dragged a car to a win when the opportunity has presented itself and a 41 year old multiple champion based solely on the commercial power that he has, and if he was any other driver he'd have been sacked after 2010.
While the last 2 years havn't been terrible for Mercedes they certainly havn't been good. I'm sure when they purchased a team with all the infrastructure, a championship-winnign chassis, a great designer at the helm and with the vast mountains of money they could pump into it they thought they would have at least achieved a sole win.
It's Mercedes' loss in the end. They lost a world champion who's go on to beat possibly the most talented driver on the grid, took on a driver who is held in high regard but has shown no signs of having dragged a car to a win when the opportunity has presented itself and a 41 year old multiple champion based solely on the commercial power that he has, and if he was any other driver he'd have been sacked after 2010.
While the last 2 years havn't been terrible for Mercedes they certainly havn't been good. I'm sure when they purchased a team with all the infrastructure, a championship-winnign chassis, a great designer at the helm and with the vast mountains of money they could pump into it they thought they would have at least achieved a sole win.
Il_leone
World Champion
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7 years with the team and offered to take a pay cut and the promise he would get it back if he delivered the title
Whereas Nick Fry tells everyone we want Jenson to stay but he won't be getting a payrise whilst he just got rich from selling his shares in Brawn to Mercedes ..right
It does not matter what happens in 5 years if Mercedes wins the title and Button has not because he has waited long enough to get his chance and seized...
Would Alonso or Hamilton wait 5 years for a team to sort itself and deliver the title when they are past their best ...I'd very much doubt
Button has not got 5 years to wait around for Mercedes to give him a winning car and as already mentioned he was only offered a 1 year contract to stay for £10m when originally he was told they could not give him a raise. That was after Mclaren gave him an offer of £6m for 2 years plus an option on 3rd year which they've taken
If Jenson was only offered 1 year at Mercedes what makes you think he has little choice other than move .
I think you could not see what Button's situation was in the first place and imagine he should have stayed with Mercedes for the long haul when its pretty obvious they don;t want him.
Senna would have done the same thing... and Alonso certainly thought he made the right decision back in 2005 because he was not sure if Renault want him or not for 2007 and signed with Mclaren.
Every driver can only look at what is the immediate best for them in the next 2 years .
If Hamilton was put in that situation he would move as well not stick around and find out he has nowhere to go
Kubica tried to do the same thing with Renault because he was not sure if Genii capital want him as part of the Renault team after he thought he had better join Renault after BMW quit because he did not want to wait around.
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Last thing are Mercedes going to be around for another 5 years as history shows manufacturers in the last decade come and go because they cite its too expensive to be in F1 for little return - see Honda, BMW and Toyota
So will Mercedes join them or stay for the long haul remains to be seen
Hamilton might. After 2008 he hasn't had a car that has been able to compete for the title properly. Although he hasn't signed a contract yet it appears that he's realised he's best off staying with McLaren and they best off with him, it looks like they be together for a few more years yet, although seeing as they're waiting for 2012 to start it might depend of how good the car is.
Button didn't have a ton of choice when staying with Honda. He was locked into a contract when the terrible cars of 2007 and 2008 came around. Besides there wasn't a lot of choice with Renault going back to the midfield, the only cars that could complete for wins were McLaren and Ferrari with BMW rarely being able to do so.
Il_leone
World Champion
Yes but remember when Alonso quit Mclaren..some suggested why not put Button in a Mclaren. Obviously Button did not do himself favours with BAR/ Williams wrangle which in effect put him out of the drivers market
Button when Honda quit got some offers he was not interested in ..being STR, Force India , Williams or being 3rd driver for BMW if the grid went further down. Also Flavio did enquire about him whether it was to replace Nelsinho or in a 3rd car that was not disclosed.
Button expressed his frustrations after a terrible 2007 season with the way Honda ran things too much like a corporate company and delivered an ultimatum... I remember EJ blasting Honda saying they are wasting Button's talents and Mansell saying Button has missed his chance of being a contender.
After the ultimatum a few days later Ross BRawn joined Honda which I thought was great..we'll never know how truly good the Honda was as Ross said it was a top car and the BRawn was a serious botch job fitting the bigger Mercedes engine with a smaller gearbox and no kers
Il_leone
World Champion
as for Hamilton I think he can play the waiting game knowing the Red Bull drive is still on but he needs to deliver and not have a season like 2011. I think Lewis can play the game because all the other major players are out of the drivers market due to their contract commitments
Interestingly Helmut did not think the junior drivers were ready to replace Webber hmmm
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as for Mercedes 2012 will be very important to them to at least get 1 win. Someone will be getting twitchy fingers in Stuttgart
Il_leone
World Champion
the only time where I can see there was justification for it say was when
Renault dropped Button and picked Alonso thanks for Flavio as much I hate to admit it but Fernando did deliver two titles then in 4 years so it was justified whatever you say about Flav's rubbish driver management
the difference was the season after Button left , Renault kept improving towards the front and were a front running team but
if you look at Mercedes they've gone 3 steps backwards and are only just out of the reach of Force India and Renault who both have less resources than them to work with
Renault dropped Button and picked Alonso thanks for Flavio as much I hate to admit it but Fernando did deliver two titles then in 4 years so it was justified whatever you say about Flav's rubbish driver management
the difference was the season after Button left , Renault kept improving towards the front and were a front running team but
if you look at Mercedes they've gone 3 steps backwards and are only just out of the reach of Force India and Renault who both have less resources than them to work with
They had Fernando pencilled in for 2003, they then had a choice between Trulli and Button. Flav picked Trulli because he was in his driver stable, and it was considered the correct decision.
Its easy to forget with hindsight, but back then Button was considered inferior to Trulli, Fisichella, Montoya and Ralf. This is why he ended up at BAR to eviscerate Jacques Villeneuve and rebuild his damaged reputation.
The Artist.....
Champion Elect
Other than the fact that Button was out-performing Trulli by a quite considerable margin! Yes Button had been fairly walloped by Fisichella (and that was probably shaping some people's opinions), but we have to face it that Flavio was guilty of only employing drivers who were managed by himself (And so he profited by employing them!) - I was always amazed that he got away with that one!!!
Il_leone
World Champion
its because the slimeball ..I mean Alonso was delivering the results on the track for Renault to justify this. The trouble was no one - Trulli, Button , Bourdais or Fisichella actually stood up and highlighted what a lousy manager Flav was.
Button was treated as an outcast once he rejected the new offer from Renault which included Flav being his personal manager and taking a 25% commission from his salary..the same offer to Trulli who was treated the same way as well
It was only when Nelson Piquet Jnr grassed up that Renault realised they had a real problem and all because Flav wanted kiss Alonso's boots and did untold damage to the brand through association. To make matters worse they were gullible enough to listen to Flav and rehire Alonso at £20m a year or so before he ran off to Ferrari . In doing so Flav had the whole Renault set up to be driven by Alonso and when he left it left the team in an absolute mess
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As for Mercedes they
Andy Karter
Rookie
They started out life with the WCC and WDC team and failed to even start where the Brawn left off at the end of the season (not as good as the RBR). The championship was in the bag fairly early for Brawn so they should also have had the luxury to start developing the next season's car earlier than their competitors.
Anyway, 2 years in and no appreciable upturn in performance other than Schui is improving.
Anyway, 2 years in and no appreciable upturn in performance other than Schui is improving.
Il_leone
World Champion
Agree as their whole plan is to have the most successful German driver winning in the greatest German car marque. Mercedes have been chasing Schumacher for 20 years to drive for them in F1 going back to a promise made back during the team's sportscar days
The question no one has asked is if Schumacher fails to even win a race and takes away with him £60m in salary, would heads roll at Stuttgart or the team itself?- its almost as bad as Toyota paying that sort of money for his brother ( DC " They signed Schumacher but the wrong one !" ouch)
I am surprised Nick Fry is still at Mercedes because I don;t see how he adds any value to the team
Il_leone
World Champion
Nick Fry becoming BAR team principal was the start of the decline of the team and undid all the good work Dave Richards did in sorting out the mess Craig Pollock and Jacques Villeneuve created
Nick Fry is more like a corporate yes man
Andy Karter
Rookie
I also meant to add that the works Mercedes team has now been beat two years running by a customer supplied team; now that must really grieve them as it's no different to Ferrari being beat by STR or Sauber!
Il_leone
World Champion
Especially as its the team they've been trying to takeover for 15 years but Ron sold his shares to some rich Arabs so there is no way Mercedes could get hold of the shares
and its the team with the driver they dumped..like I said the only nightmare for Mercedes is if Button becomes world champion in a Mclaren Mercedes before Mercedes win the drivers title
Norbert puts on a brave face in front of TV that Mclaren as engine partners earn success powered by Mercedes but the boardroom people will have a different view especially if the "Silver Arrows" are left trailing miles behind
Cookinflatsix
Banned
Norbert is probably worrying more about the possibility of Marussia taking over Daimler Ag and forcing them to merge the F1 team with HRT, and change name to Skoda Smirnov and employing Pastor as main driver
