Ask The Apex

[Speshal]

Can I ask at what track Piquet made this pass on Senna (I know that I know it but can't place it) got to be between 85-87

And why have I never seen this move before (a 4 wheel drift round the outside, under braking, sublime)

From about 43 seconds in the vid (I'd mute the sound if I were you!)

 

[Nomad]

That's pretty much it. The beauty of it on a race car is that the vertical lip can be quickly removed and changed for a different height one. Much faster than changing the wing, allowing quicker setup of the suspension.

 

[Chad Stewarthill]

Ok, so I knew what a gurney flap was (gives himself a gold star). I've always thought of them as a bit like those plastic binders you can get from stationers for putting reports together. I seem to remember seeing a mechanic tear one off (or fixing one back on) during a pit stop once, several years ago.

But I've never really understood how they work. In my simplistic way I thought that the principle of good aerodynamics was to keep things as smooth as possible, so why does a protruding strip on the trailing edge of the wing actually reduce drag?

 

[Chad Stewarthill]

Speshal:

Could it be the Hungaroring?

 

[rufus_mcdufus]

Can I ask at what track Piquet made this pass on Senna (I know that I know it but can't place it) got to be between 85-87

And why have I never seen this move before (a 4 wheel drift round the outside, under braking, sublime)

From about 43 seconds in the vid (I'd mute the sound if I were you!)

It was at the Hungaroring (1986 Hungarian Grand Prix).

 

[Galahad]

Ok, so I knew what a gurney flap was (gives himself a gold star). I've always thought of them as a bit like those plastic binders you can get from stationers for putting reports together. I seem to remember seeing a mechanic tear one off (or fixing one back on) during a pit stop once, several years ago.

But I've never really understood how they work. In my simplistic way I thought that the principle of good aerodynamics was to keep things as smooth as possible, so why does a protruding strip on the trailing edge of the wing actually reduce drag?

I think it's the case that the gurney doesn't reduce drag - it increases it, but only slightly.

I found this article, which tells the brilliant story of Dan Gurney's discovery, and covers some aero stuff at the end: http://www.allamericanracers.com/gurney_flap.html

In essence I believe it makes the wing behave as if it were running a steeper angle, but without the full attendant increase in drag that would entail - or risk of stall.

 

[Grizzly]

I'm going to drag it back to timing if i may...

I see no complication in this. Ignore actual footage. The cars positions are known, with great accuracy at any point on the track. All driver inputs are known. So, do it virtually, all that's needed is a car model plonked on the data.

If the necessary info was made available to broadcasters then its simple to do, and we could analyse at any angle/view/perspective we wanted....

 

[Chad Stewarthill]

'Fifth Gear' manage to 'ghost' two cars together round their test track quite successfully when running two-car comparison tests, at several points around the lap (Top Gear use a split-screen with one above the other, but I'm not convinced they are always properly synchronised).

But I agree that the shots of each car have to be from the same camera angle for it to work.

 

[Bullfrog]

'Fifth Gear' manage to 'ghost' two cars together round their test track quite successfully when running two-car comparison tests, at several points around the lap (Top Gear use a split-screen with one above the other, but I'm not convinced they are always properly synchronised).

But I agree that the shots of each car have to be from the same camera angle for it to work.

Preferably a static camera, but I'm sure you could use identical pans/tracking shots. Are track cameras actually manned these days or are they remote controlled from one control room?

 

[F1Yorkshire]

Fifth Gear manage to produce their ghost images as they are setting up the camera's in advance to deal with them as well as having the extra post-production time before the show is aired. Those camera's are set up to do just the timed runs for the cars been featured and they are not been used to show another 20 odd cars driving around the circuit at the same time.

The BBC also has to make do with whatever footage the host broadcaster supplies and due to the limited time they have available during a race weekend I think ghost images are not a priority. Maybe they could set something up for the British GP but I'm sure there are regulations which say how many camera's and operators are allowed on the circuit at any time.

The rally video's I've seen when they show 2 cars side by side have been CGI versions of the cars using the timed stage data.

 

[Grizzly]

There are fixed and manned cameras

I already mentioned Fifth Gear but they set their cameras up to use the same sweep. Think Top Gear synchronises the start of each camera sweep so they come into each shot together.

Like i said, forget using actual footage, use the cars/teams data for timings, track poisonings and telemetry and use computer modelling.

I think half this data has to be submitted to the FIA already, so its not like its a big secret for the teams to give up..

 

[Chad Stewarthill]

Bullfrog said:Preferably a static camera, but I'm sure you could use identical pans/tracking shots. Are track cameras actually manned these days or are they remote controlled from one control room?

At Silverstone all the cameras are manned, so I presume the other circuits are the same.

And Grizzly:
Sorry, I missed your earlier mention of Fifth Gear.

 

[Brogan]

It's a shame cat's not around as I suspect he could write a thesis on this one but what exactly did the twin chassis lotus entail and what was so good about it?

 

[Grizzly]

And Grizzly:
Sorry, I missed your earlier mention of Fifth Gear.

I said it first! Get in the naughty corner

 

[FB]

The Lotus 88/88B from 1981 was one of Colin Chapman's more bizarre ideas. Working on the theory that chassis is both a singular and a plural he decided to build a car with two chassis. The inner one carried the driver, engine and suspension, the outer one the aerodynamic element of the car.

A little bit of history to put the car in context. In 1981, when sliding skirts were banned, the requirement was that the car must be 10cm off the ground one enetering and leaving the pit area. Gordon Murray circumvented this by fitting a pneumatic suspension to the Brabham cars which lowered the car down after leaving the pits, regaining the seal between the side pods and the ground and recovering the ground effect. One unfortunate side effect was that the car had virtually no suspension movement. For 1982 pneumatic or hydraulic suspensions were banned.

All the new cars for 1981 arrived sitting the required 10cm off the ground, Chapman rolled up with a car with a 2nd chassis which was lowered onto the track as the car went along as the outer aerodynamic portion of the car was sprung loaded and was basically sucked down onto the track as the air flowed over it. Within the letter of the regulations but not, perhaps, within the spirit of the rules (anyone heard that phrase recently?). It did however have a fully functioning suspension which the Brabham system, copied eventually by all the other teams, did not.

It was banned from it's first race, Chapman then brought it back a few more times until at the British Grand Prix, having passed scrutineering and having been cleared to race, the FIA threatened to remove the races World Championship classification if the RAC let the 88B onto the track. The RAC, who would have lost a stack of money, capitulated and banned the car and it never raced. I believe the regulations were later changed to stipulate a single chassis.

 

[Bullfrog]

That's fascinating, I've never known a great deal about that car until now. Thanks FB.

 

[siffert_fan]

As I recall, the 88 was also an attempt to prevent the driver from being quite so punished by the harshness of the suspension.

To maintain the proper ride height, suspensions were granite-like in their harshness, and, initially at least, many drivers were having vision problems and severe back and neck pain as a result. By having the drivers cell a bit more softly sprung, some of the punishment was eliminated (in theory).

 

[sobriety]

I imagine that if your driver isn't pissing blood at the end of the race (apparently powerboat racers often do!?) he a little more effective in the closing laps!

 

[tooncheese]

My question is how much of the car do the teams in fact make themselves. I know that the brakes are from bremco or carbon industries, only the three works teams make engines, and the suspension is made by genii? Any ansers woould be great

 

[Galahad]

My question is how much of the car do the teams in fact make themselves. I know that the brakes are from bremco or carbon industries, only the three works teams make engines, and the suspension is made by genii? Any ansers woould be great

The answer is that it varies quite a bit.

As far as I know all the teams except HRT manufacture all their carbon fibre components - so that's the monocoque, safety structures and bodywork including the floor. Dallara manufacture these bits for HRT - or at least they did until they fell out.

Gearboxes are a mixed bag. The top teams have had their own in-house gearbox manufacturing facilities for a long time, but those further down the grid often buy theirs from a specialist supplier such as Xtrac. There are also hybrid versions where the teams design their own gearbox housing (as this has to incorporate the rear suspension pick-up points) but use an outside supplier for the internal parts.

McLaren Electronic Systems (MES) supply the standard Electronic Control Units to all the teams.

Like the gearboxes, most of the visible suspension components are largely designed and built by the teams according to their specific requirements of weight, stiffness and geometry, but elements like the springs, pushrods and dampers are often bought in from external suppliers - Sachs and Koni being examples. These parts are not "off the shelf" but developed in conjunction with the teams according to their specifications.

F1 Technical have collected an extraordinary amount of information about car specs past and present:

http://www.f1technical.net/f1db/cars/