A great drivers missing bits

[Il_leone]

I agree with what most people have said about drivers in this thread


There was a recent F1 Racing article on Kimi whether he should be considered a great or has underachieved and it does boil down to

i) His application - only turns it on when he is in the mood and the car feels great
ii) His personality - His carefree attitude was good in one sense if he delivered but it was frustrating as he was not into the team camardarie and getting to know the person


Reutemann - a talented driver - he has beaten 2 reigning world champions as teammates but somehow has a series of poor races in between none more evident than 1981 Watkins Glen final race - on pole and in position to be world champion and drove a poor race and Piquet was champ


Berger -Fast and aggressive but I do think the crash in Imola in 1989 and the ruthlessness of Senna really affected him badly
- Senna was just in another league to him

DC - You have to say he was matching Hakkinen and should not have been asked to move over in Jerez 1997 which was followed by his own gentlemanly act in Melbourne 1998.
Stirling Moss said he had integrity but not ruthlessness and consistency to be No 1 as he never won 2 races in succession

Montoya - his feisty attitude was great for F1 but it was his achilles heel as he was prone to making mistakes and rash decisions. Maybe that was due to his poor fitness preparation

 

[Il_leone]

Kewee Dartman Olivier

Jacques Villeneuve
- Got into F1 because Bernie wanted to use his dad's name as it was good for F1 so must have done some arm twisting to get WIlliams to give him a go which he did enough to impress aside the fact that DC had already a committed contract with Mclaren anyway for 1996

- Benefitted from Hill's open arms and welcoming approach and after a sensational debut it took him a while to find his feet which came during the latter half of 1996

- The move on Schumacher impressed everyone but also inflated his ego

- 1997 with Hill gone he wanted to assert authority on Frentzen who came in with the expectancy of able to beat Schumacher but never got going and succumbed to enormous weight of expectation

- JV was inconsistent in 1997

- 1998 the car did not help him at all in his defence prompting to set up his own team with Pollock whilst a gamble was not a bad idea

- 1999 he said it was a disastrous season but he still raced his heart out

-2000 he showed glimpses of his ability such that Mclaren and Benetton (soon to be Renault) wanted him but he chose to stay with BAR

-2001-2002 the BAR were not making the progress as Honda & BAT wanted so they forced out Pollock and hired Richards was an inspired decision as the team went from midfield to top 4 teams on the grid with Button

-His mind games on Button did not work and he marginalised himself further by refusing taking a pay cut in his salary and subsequently was driven out of F1.

His comebacks with Renault and Sauber did nothing to restore his reputation.

What went wrong for JV was apparently he felt he was untouchable at BAR and he would not listen to the engineers and got protection from Pollock. Everyone loved Panis when he joined the team and even Button more in 2003.

JV made too many enemies when he should have listened instead of believing his own hype. His F1 record should have been a lot better than it stands

 

[LifeW12]

The fact of the matter is, Villeneuve was not that good.

 

[Dartman]

Can't disagree with that at all Il_leone, only add that the 1997 car was hangover from Damon well sorted and got a WC out of it just.

 

[The Pits]

Not to mention the small matter of Adrian Newey.

 

[Dartman]

Mr Newey is very good, but not straight out of the box, you need patience with him. Once he finds the way to go he is almost unbeatable but changes in regulations can throw him off. RB took a few years to get there. With his new project he has about four years to get it right, if he doesn't Sir Ben is in the mire as there won't be a second chance

 

[Dash Racing]

The fact of the matter is, Villeneuve was not that good.

I'm not sure I agree with this. Sure, he wasn't great, but he was good - his racing record backs that up (BAR's problems were BAR's problems, frankly, and it was a bad decision to go there and stay there). JV was good enough for F1, definitely.

The problem is, when anyone good gets into F1, they're competing at the top levels, and anyone better than them isn't just good, but great. When a good person competes against a great person, the comparison is never favorable, and unfortunately, people lose sight of the fact that even those who are merely good, are just that - good.

I will admit I'm not impartial though - I was a JV fan, and it is highly probable that's giving me some rather neat rose-colored lenses to look at JV's career through.

 

[Olivier]

The fact of the matter is, Villeneuve was not that good.

we are talking about JV in the context of this thread, which is to say that he's at least not too bad

 

[siffert_fan]

I fail to see how anyone can say that any WDC was missing anything! And, since JV frequently outshone Damon, you would have to admit that, if JV was missing something, Damon was as well, and possibly even more so.

 

[Kewee]

Il_leone ..... Yours was a very long posting which I read carefully, but to be that critical of a driver you clearly have no time for, you have to ignore his considerable successes which go well beyond F1 as well as including his time and success in F1. As I said the only driver to equal his statistics during his first two years in Formula One is Lewis Hamilton. Yes, things fell into place which were helpful to him, but that can be said of any driver who has succeeded in the sport so shouldn't be used to criticise.

 

[Kewee]

Il_leone .... One more comment. To suggest Frank Williams signed Villeneuve because Ecclestone wanted him in F1 is insulting to Frank Williams. Frank Williams doesn't employ on Bernie's instructions or advice. The truth is he was attracted but the family name yes, but more importantly he was impressed by his success in America.

 

[Mephistopheles]

And, since JV frequently outshone Damon

No way did JV ever outshine Damon, Damon technically beat JV in an Arrows if not actually and Jenson wiped the floor with him at BAR to such an extent that JV was basically sacked, and since there are a lot of people on here who consider Jenson to be mediocre at best what does that make JV?

 

[siffert_fan]

Meph.

I would suggest you look at the results of the Hungarian, Portugese, German and European GPs plus pole positions for that season, and you may re-evaluate that statement!

 

[Mephistopheles]

But at the end of the day Damon won the championship and had eight wins to JV's four..

 

[siffert_fan]

And had more years in the team than the rookie, JV!

 

[Kewee]

Mephistopheles .... Incredible that you choose 1996 to base your criticism on. Villeneuve may well have been beaten by Hill but it was his rookie season and he was most successful rookie in the sports history, eventually equalled by Hamilton. Hardly reason to criticise.

 

[Mephistopheles]

What about the part where I compared him to Jenson Button at BAR? Jenson was four years less experienced than JV at that time and soundly beat the former world champ, and like I said Jenson isn't even rated that highly by many..

 

[soccerman17]

I think you're all underrating both Jenson and JV. Also, Williams JV would have destroyed BAR JV. You can talk bad all you want about BAR JV but that clearly wasn't the peak of his powers.

 

[Kewee]

Mephistopheles .... When Craig Pollock was fired and David Richards took over as team principle it was clear that Villeneuve was no longer wanted and would be next to go. One of the main reasons Jenson signed with BAR was to have the opportunity to work with David Richards. None of this is a criticism of Button but it was clear David Richards wanted to build the team around Button not Villeneuve. Obviously when a driver loses interest and motivation to be with a team as happened with Villeneuve when Pollock was fired their results fall away.

 

[Kewee]

I think you're all underrating both Jenson and JV. Also, Williams JV would have destroyed BAR JV. You can talk bad all you want about BAR JV but that clearly wasn't the peak of his powers.

I'm not underrating either of them soccerman17. I always rated Villeneuve and Jenson Button is still top draw as far as I'm concerned, he just needs a well sorted car to show it. None of my postings have been critical of either driver.