A crisis at Ferrari?

[Brogan]

To certain contributors here. When a British team come up with an exciting new development it's called innovative, if a French or Italian team were to do the same it would be called cheating.

Only one team historically has had a technical veto over the rest of the field.

How does that square with your statement?

 

[Kewee]

Well, I think Alonso will drive it as fast as it will go, but the engineers are the guys charged with making it faster. They have been much flattered by thier no.1 driver over the past two years. It's elsewhere in the team that they need to look if they want to find the performance and balance that they have recently been unable to produce.

Regarding Alonso's contribition. This is a word for word quote from an interview with Ron Dennis in 2007.

"Over and above his natural talent, which is a given, he has a profound understanding of how both an F1 team and an F1 car function. He truly understands how to make an F1 car go fast - and go faster which isn't necessarily the same thing. He can describe to his engineers and others, in a technical way, the feedback that his car is giving him. That ability comes from experience, yes, and from expertise, of course, and from intelligence, naturally, but also from a high level of natural sensitivity. The upside of that combination is considerable. It prevents an F1 team from going down [time wasting] technical cul-de-sacs, and as a result car-development progress becomes more linear."

Word for word from none other than Ron Dennis. Makes you wonder where it all went wrong doesn't it, especially when you consider Martin Whitmarsh's comment, that his greatest regret in his 25 years at McLaren was losing Alonso.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Yep sure, and I agree with Ron's comments, but on the topic of innovation; I'm sure he doesn't tell them where to point the exhausts or suggest the use of pull-rod front suspension. His contribution to development is giving feedback from the cockpit. Yes this feels better, or no this feels worse. We need more this or we need more that. Giving good feedback may be a catalyst for innovation but only if you have engineers who can interpret the data and come up with innovative solutions (or even not-so-innovative solutions).

 

[Kewee]

Come on Guys, My comment regarding innovation and cheating was tongue in cheek. I thought my little laughing man indicated that. I hope I didn't strike a raw nerve.
One extra point here. Ferraris innovations over the years have been plenty, but have almost always been in a mechanical area, engines, gearbox etc, places that remain out of sight. They've never been innovators in the field of aerodynamics, they would be the first to admit that, but it's just silly to suggest they've not been innovative when you look back at their history.

 

[Kewee]

Yep sure, and I agree with Ron's comments, but on the topic of innovation; I'm sure he doesn't tell them where to point the exhausts or suggest the use of pull-rod front suspension. His contribution to development is giving feedback from the cockpit. Yes this feels better, or no this feels worse. We need more this or we need more that. Giving good feedback may be a catalyst for innovation but only if you have engineers who can interpret the data and come up with innovative solutions (or even not-so-innovative solutions).

The extra 3 or 4 tenths come from the contribution of a very good development driver and is the difference between winning and losing. Of course a driver doesn't design the car, no one is suggesting that, but his contribution, if he has a mechanical understanding of a cars behavior, can mean the difference between a cars development moving forward at a decent pace or stagnating. This year will tell us plenty. I still believe Ferrari will come alive in the second half of the season, and if the wins during the first half have been shared around, Alonso will be very much in the title fight.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

One extra point here. Ferraris innovations over the years have been plenty, but have almost always been in a mechanical area, engines, gearbox etc, places that remain out of sight. They've never been innovators in the field of aerodynamics, they would be the first to admit that, but it's just silly to suggest they've not been innovative when you look back at their history.

Not suggesting that Ferrari have never been inovative, just not with thier current staff. I'm afraid that in recent time, and don't forget that we are talking about recent time, successful innovation has been something that has eluded Ferrari. Thier history is only relevant in that they have a lot of technical history and documentation to pool from as well as massive budget to draw on. It feels like the topic of discussion shifts wherever Ferrari are found to be validly criticised. Thier history really does have very little to do with what they should do now or tomorrow other than raise the expectation of them and give them the financial means with which to deliver.

 

[tooncheese]

Only one team historically has had a technical veto over the rest of the field.

How does that square with your statement?

Red Bull vetoed getting rid of these ugly stepped noses, only Toro Rosso also agreed and they just do as they are told. Everyone else agreed.

 

[Brogan]

That's a different situation as it requires unanimous agreement.

Ferrari on the other hand had a unilateral veto under Max's reign.

 

[Marc]

My point was not whether these innovations had been successful or not, just that they had been deemed to be at the very least against the spirit of the regulations, which was why they were banned so quickly.
I agree the comment you made regarding Alonso. If anyone can contribute to getting the new Ferrari up to speed Alonso can. Time will tell.

Also they not as bad as where McLaren were last year, so there's time yet.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Well I wish Ferrari and Alonso luck, but as efficient as we know Alonso is and as valuable as his contributions are, it won't be enough if the rest of the team can't get the development, management and strategies right.

I know you really want Ferrari to regain thier glory and I hope it works out. However, I can't ignore where they are now and where the have been of recent and, rather than have faith or belief that everything will fall into place, I will wait to see what they can do. If they have another half season, as they have for the last two years, it won't be enough and the car will be scrapped again for a drastically new set of regulations in 2013.

I've probably said enough on the topic, but clearly I share the same concerns that Ferrari have internally, and publicly, about themselves.

 

[Kewee]

Well I wish Ferrari and Alonso luck, but as efficient as we know Alonso is and as valuable as his contributions are, it won't be enough if the rest of the team cat get the development, management and strategies right.

I know you really want Ferrari to regain thier glory and I hope it works out. However, I can't ignore where they are now and where the have been of recent and, rather than have faith or belief that everything will fall into place, I will wait to see what they can do. If they have another half season, as they have for the last two years, it won't be enough and the car will be scrapped again for a drastically new set of regulations in 2013.

I've probably said enough on the topic, but clearly I share the same concerns that Ferrari have internally, and publicly, about themselves.

A half season wasn't enough for anyone last season because Vettel was doing all the winning. As I said if the wins are shared around in the first half of the season there will be a number of drivers within striking distance this year.
I may be wrong but I think you'll find the new regulations with the turbo V6's have been delayed a year until 2014.
By the way, yes I'm a Ferrari fan but not a fanatic. My hope is to see Button take another title. I'm a Kiwi remember so my heart is with McLaren.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Well, nobody wants to turn up and keep thier fingers crossed for the first half of the season whilst staring at your competitor's gearboxes, which is what all suggestions point to. I might be wrong. Perhaps some people would be perfectly satisfied with this by I can't think for the life of me why.

I didn't know that about the regs delay. Shame. Can anyone else confirm?

 

[Kewee]

Well, nobody wants to turn up and keep thier fingers crossed for the first half of the season whilst staring at your competitor's gearboxes, which is what all suggestions point to. I might be wrong. Perhaps some people would be perfectly satisfied with this by I can't think for the life of me why.

I didn't know that about the regs delay. Shame. Can anyone else confirm?

I'm not sure why you would assume I'm suggesting any team would run the first half of the season with their fingers crossed. You can be sure every team, regardless of their position in the championship, will be doing all they can to lift their performance, for themselves, their drivers, and their sponsors.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

OK. Let's be sensible. Ferrari look set to have slipped back again. For the fourth year running they look to be turning up to the first race with a car that is behind the other top teams. Can we just agree that, for Ferrari and thier fans, this is not a good thing. That's really all anyone is actually saying. Okay, they may surprise us in little under two week's time, but to believe that would be wishful thinking against the evidence.

 

[Bill Boddy]

2010 Ferrari didn't have too bad a start, a one two in the first race, a three four in the second. Then it was a case that they made the car worse whilst everyone else was making theirs better.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

I stand graciously corrected.

If only they had had Alonso to develop the car over the season. Oh...hang on.

Sorry. Edited that after you "liked" it. (maybe the addition of some smileys will help)

 

[Kewee]

OK. Let's be sensible. Ferrari look set to have slipped back again. For the fourth year running they look to be turning up to the first race with a car that is behind the other top teams. Can we just agree that, for Ferrari and thier fans, this is not a good thing. That's really all anyone is actually saying. Okay, they may surprise us in little under two week's time, but to believe that would be wishful thinking against the evidence.

Ok, I'll be very sensible and wait until the first race to see whether they've slipped back. What I find incredulous is that everyone's talking down Ferrari when in fact Red Bull only managed to turn in 15 laps on the final day of the most important test of all, the final chance to evaluate where they were before packing up and heading for Australia. It should be remembered Alonso lead the time sheets for most of the day, finally bettered by Kimi by 2 tenths while Red Bull finished at the bottom. I can't imagine what you'd all be saying if it were Ferrari at the bottom considering your reaction when they're very close to the top. To those that choose to use the old argument, times mean nothing, then why are you righting Ferrari off.
Sadly this topic has been reduced to, lets knock Ferrari. Reminds me of 606 back in the BBC days.

 

[Kewee]

I stand graciously corrected.

If only they had had Alonso to develop the car over the season. Oh...hang on.

Sorry. Edited that after you "liked" it. (maybe the addition of some smileys will help)

Ha ha Ninja, I assume your little comment "if only they had Alonso to develop the car" was either a swipe at me or you know better than Ron Dennis and every other team principle that's employed him. You'll find all the team managers that have worked closely with him agree on his development skills.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

No. This topic has been reduced to "everybody is mocking Ferrari" - when actually nobody is doing any such thing. It is perfectly normal to speculate on a team's performance in the pre-season. It is also perfectly normal for people: myself, media, members of this forum or anyone else to look at the performance, and messages coming from Ferrari and deduce that they are not where they want to be. There really is no need to see any of it as an attack. Nobody is actually saying anything other than what Ferrari are saying themselves. If Ferrari turn up with a car that is the class of the field in Melbourne, then we will all be proven wrong and they will have surprised themselves with what will have been a fantastic turnaround.

There is also plenty of speculation on the forum and in the media about Red Bull's woes in the last two days of testing. It's pretty hard to ignore. Ferrari are not being bullied or singled out or victimised. They are being analysed, assessed and scrutinised in the same way that all of the other teams might be. If this sort of analysis is of no interest to you then surely it is best to let it be. Some teams attract more interest than others, sure, but not disproportionately to public interest or the size of thier fanbase or the expectations of them. You only have to look around to see commentary on every team on the grid as well as those that haven't quite made it yet. I'm afraid, Ferrari have no special right not to be subject to the same scrutiny.

Ferrari are not where they want to be right now. Whether they will be in two weeks remains to be seen, but at this point looks doubtful. It might sound pessimistic to you, but it just sounds honest to me.

I'll let that be my last direct response to you on this topic unless any new information comes to light. Don't take it all so personally.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Ha ha Ninja, I assume your little comment "if only they had Alonso to develop the car" was either a swipe at me or you know better than Ron Dennis and every other team principle that's employed him. You'll find all the team managers that have worked closely with him agree on his development skills.

I'm clearly not serious. We've been conversing on this thread for much of the evening and I'm pretty sure you are fully aware that I hold Fernado's skills in very high regard. Please Kewee. Chill out. You're taking everything personally and out of context.