2020 Silly Season

[Il_leone]

I think Le Clerc is going to get better and understanding what it takes to be a top F1 driver. Vettel on the other hand you can say he has bad luck but he has made some errors under pressure moments which questions his credibility . On top of that things like the quali yesterday where it was almost a repeat of last year does gradually drain away at him. I am not sure how he can still justify being No 1 at Ferrari with the salary he is getting paid and not delivering.

Alonso was being mischievous seeing the guys at Ferrari this weekend but he is definitely not going to risk his reputation getting beat by LeClerc.

Ferrari have to either be bold and think about Hamilton or Verstappen or go for Ricciardo. If they are looking for a No 2 then Perez and his Mexican no doubt will go and break their Racing Point deal and jump to Ferrari which is a ghastly choice.

If Ferrari want to go junior drivers which is unlike anything they've done before then Callum Illott and Mick Schumacher are not ready for F1

 

[Il_leone]

I wonder if Toto regrets his decision about Bottas after today

 

[Ruslan]

I wonder if Toto regrets his decision about Bottas after today

I was thinking the same thing.

As it is, I understand that Toto Wolff wanted Ocon, whereas the rest of the Mercedes board pushed for Bottas. So he is now stuck with a driver that he wanted to replace. We shall see how next season goes.

 

[Ruslan]

I think Le Clerc is going to get better and understanding what it takes to be a top F1 driver. Vettel on the other hand you can say he has bad luck but he has made some errors under pressure moments which questions his credibility . On top of that things like the quali yesterday where it was almost a repeat of last year does gradually drain away at him. I am not sure how he can still justify being No 1 at Ferrari with the salary he is getting paid and not delivering.

Alonso was being mischievous seeing the guys at Ferrari this weekend but he is definitely not going to risk his reputation getting beat by LeClerc.

Ferrari have to either be bold and think about Hamilton or Verstappen or go for Ricciardo. If they are looking for a No 2 then Perez and his Mexican no doubt will go and break their Racing Point deal and jump to Ferrari which is a ghastly choice.

If Ferrari want to go junior drivers which is unlike anything they've done before then Callum Illott and Mick Schumacher are not ready for F1

It is beginning to look like 2014 for Vettel all over again. He has been "off key" since Canada (which also included a major error). This weekend, he went off track at every practice session, during qualifying and during the race. It was a poor performance for a four-time world champion, coming after other poor performances.

We shall see if he can gather it up for the start of next season. If not, then 2020 may be his last year with Ferrari.

Maybe we should start a 2021 Silly Season thread.

 

[RasputinLives]

If I wanted a good outside bet I'd go for a shock Vettel retirement at the end of the he year with Kimi coming back to Ferrari.

 

[Il_leone]

RasputinLives One better Alonso coming back although Binotto does not warm to the idea

 

[Il_leone]

I was thinking the same thing.

As it is, I understand that Toto Wolff wanted Ocon, whereas the rest of the Mercedes board pushed for Bottas. So he is now stuck with a driver that he wanted to replace. We shall see how next season goes.

Well I think Ferrari have now got their man of the future so what on earth are Mercedes are thinking ?

 

[RasputinLives]

RasputinLives One better Alonso coming back although Binotto does not warm to the idea

Not in a million years would they bring Alonso back. How on earth would that work? Hardly going to support LeClerc is he? And can you imagine how much crying like a big old baby he would have done with this year's Ferrari?

It's quite clear to me now that Kimi's move over to Alfa was so that Ferrari had him on standby for a recall in case of LeClerc flopping or, like we have now, in case of a Vettel fall out. He is their perfect fall back.

 

[F1Brits_90]

me & Ruslan have been discussing this. I can see a potentially a retirement he has a young family 5 & 4, Instead of flying around the world he may want to spend some time with them. as I put on race thread that is 1 good race in 13months since last win. Leclerc has outqualifed him 7 concective times as well

 

[220]

Maybe. Vettel had kind of been one of the top three drivers in Formula One for the better part of a decade. A new guy coming in and beating a world champion the first year he is on the team is pretty rare. Either: 1) Vettel is currently underperforming, or 2) Vettel was never as good as his reputation or 3) Leclerc is just so good that he is clearly better than someone like Vettel (and therefore Hamilton/Alonso/Verstappen). I tend to go with the first argument. I think the 3rd argument is a bit of a stretch.

Dont forget he was in exactly the same situation at RB with Ricciardo, I think it is a combination of 1, 2 & 3.
It is looking more and more like if he doesnt have a car that can win a championship then he doesnt perform to his best. Twice now he has found himself with a new team mate and a race winning but not championship winning car and has been out performed both times.
Getting yourself motivated to perform at 100% every week is part of the package of a great driver if Vettel cant do it unless there is a championship in the offering then clearly he is not as good as his reputation.

 

[Ruslan]

Dont forget he was in exactly the same situation at RB with Ricciardo, I think it is a combination of 1, 2 & 3.

By default, option 1 and 2 sort of preclude option 3, and vice versa. Either Vettel is underperforming, overrated, or Leclerc is the second coming of Christ. I am not convinced it is option 3.

It is looking more and more like if he doesnt have a car that can win a championship then he doesnt perform to his best. Twice now he has found himself with a new team mate and a race winning but not championship winning car and has been out performed both times.

Of course, this I have noted. It is the underperforming option, which is hard to argue is not a problem.

Now, my suspicion in 2010 -2013 is that Vettel was never really quite as fast, and quite as consistent as Hamilton/Alonso. Part of the reason I suspected this was that he had never been properly tested against a competitive teammate. By default Hamilton and Alonso had. We knew where they stood. So, I have always been suspicious that he was not quite at their level. I don't think we will know that for certain until we see how 2020 shakes out. If he cannot up his game to match Leclerc in 2020, then I would have to say that the four championships in 2010-2013 had a lot more to do with the car than the driver.

 

[siffert_fan]

Ruslan

If Vettel's championships were more down to the car than to his talents, how do you feel about Hamilton's, when, for all but one of them, he has been in the most dominant car the sport has ever seen (proven by Botta's high finishes in the standings)? Essentially, he has been in a 2-car championship since the start of the current formula, and yet he managed to lose one WDC to his teammate, the only competition he had.

 

[220]

I dont think Leclerc is the second coming but like Ricciardo he certainly seems to be the equal of Vettel in the same car. Now is that becasue Vettel is lacking motivation and under performing or are Leclerc & Ricciardo really his equal. Either way for me it means his reputation is probably over stated.
It will be very interesting to see what happens next season because when it happened at RB Vettel walked away and we never got to compare him against Ricciardo in the same car for a second season.

 

[Ruslan]

Ruslan

If Vettel's championships were more down to the car than to his talents, how do you feel about Hamilton's, when, for all but one of them, he has been in the most dominant car the sport has ever seen (proven by Botta's high finishes in the standings)? Essentially, he has been in a 2-car championship since the start of the current formula, and yet he managed to lose one WDC to his teammate, the only competition he had.

The point I was trying to make is that Vettel's results in 2010-2013 may have had more to do the with car than many people claim and less to do with his talent than many people claim. Obviously, you have to have really good car to win. Hamilton has teamed with three world champions at the height of their ability (Alonso, Button and Rosberg) and has matched or outperformed them. There is no doubt that he is truly a top driver. Vettel does not have the same proven track record (unless you consider Raikonnen at Ferrari).

My real question is: Did Vettel win his four championships with a car that 1) was equal to his opponents (and the difference was Vettel), 2) slightly better than his opponents (therefor he was equal to them) or 3) noticeably better than his opponents (and therefore, some of his opponents were better)? I have always assumed it was option 2. I am not sure now after this second failure (the first was 2014 season) that this is the case.

...and yet he managed to lose one WDC to his teammate, the only competition he had.

Do we really need to debate this? I assume you don't consider Rosberg his equal.

 

[220]

Ruslan

If Vettel's championships were more down to the car than to his talents, how do you feel about Hamilton's, when, for all but one of them, he has been in the most dominant car the sport has ever seen (proven by Botta's high finishes in the standings)? Essentially, he has been in a 2-car championship since the start of the current formula, and yet he managed to lose one WDC to his teammate, the only competition he had.

Dont forget if it wasnt for Webber having another crash on his mountain bike and completing the last 4 races of 2010 with a broken shoulder Vettel might have lost one to a team mate as well. Webber was leading the championship up until that point.

 

[siffert_fan]

Don't forget, Button beat Hamilton by 43 points when they were teammates.

 

[Dartman]

Though there have been occasions when Vettel's career seems to be similar to Hamilton's ie Button and Rosberg vs Vettel's Webber and Riciardo the main difference is Hamilton learnt Vettel hasn't, both Vettel and Rosberg wheel to wheel with their team mate defending normally cause a collision where one if not both retire, when Hamilton defends or attacks against a team mate there tends to be no collision retirement, the one exception being Canada 2011 and the jury will always be out on that one. Did Hamilton leave McLaren because of crap cars or Button was too great a threat? consensus was the cars. Rosberg triumphed one season and walked away probably realising that was his one and only chance, Rosberg was quick but not as complete as Hamilton. Vettel on the other hand was the chosen one at Red Bull, Webber walked away as really there was nowhere to go and in any incident Vettel was never in the teams eyes guilty and he disobeyed team orders with impunity, Ricciardo was faster than Vettel and RB couldn't do the same to Ricciardo as they did to Webber as the favouritism would have been counter productive in PR terms, Vettel walked, then came Max and RB did the same to Ricciardo as they did to Webber, Ricciardo walked and proved in an inferior car he still has it, Max and Ricciardo would have been a disaster for RB one had to go. Vettel will walk, the question is when, I still think that in a team like MB Vettel would have been sacked due to his failures under pressure instigating brain fade.

 

[vintly]

It's no secret that Vettel dislikes the hybrid technology, whereas it suits the younger drivers who can perhaps adjust to it better. Vettel's hobby (or one of them) is old-tech motorbikes - he was driving the water-cooled Suzuki 'kettle' whatsit to a race a few years back, and is repairing an old pedal-scooter he had as a kid as we heard in an interview at Monza. He shuns social media - it's as if he rejects fancy new tech if he deems it unnecessary and I think the hybrid era is a bit of a struggle for him.

 

[F1Brits_90]

lewis where he proves his quality in every rule change won every race in every season & only lost twice to a teammate, Vettel hit the sweet spot in 2010 - 13 he was fantastic in that car & newey great aero & capitalised. arguably he could've been a 2 time world champ 2010 webber threw it away in korea & then Ferrari/webber strategist threw it away in abu dhabi. 2012 it was a big surprise to the team that he managed to nurse it home with damaged exhaust & radiator. to deny Alonso a 3rd title but outside of that era he is probably just very good not great.

I still say he needed to win a 5th world title at Ferrari. to stop the talk of newey & red bull because he judged to a higher standard than anyone because of company he keeps Prost won his 4 over 9 season period, Fangio 5 over a 7 season period, Lewis 6 over 12 season period or Schumacher 7 over 11 season period. maybe like ted kravitz says if he gets a sniff of championship we will see a new vettel, but we saw these mistakes 2017 & 2018 when he was in championship hunt

 

[Publius Cornelius Scipio]

Vettel looks like a very frustrated person at the moment, I think that he's a first class driver but he has no one around him to help him when he needs some support. He went into a downward spiral in 2014 and has done the same this year. He needs someone who can help him regain his confidence and focus on the job.

Regarding yesterday, IMHO he once again tried to overdrive his car, losing the back end like he did is otherwise unexplainable to me (unless he made a mistake like Kimi a few years ago when he turned the brake bias manetting on the wrong side)