I think Vandoorne is depressed. Think it became obvious he messed his career path up and his head went down. Certainly not the same driver I've watched through his career. No fight in him whatsoever.
Poll 2018 CTA Driver of the Year
- Thread starter F1Brits_90
- Start date
I think Vandoorne is depressed. Think it became obvious he messed his career path up and his head went down. Certainly not the same driver I've watched through his career. No fight in him whatsoever.
F1Brits_90
World Champion
RasputinLives well it could be because when your getting battered my your teammate every race weekend for 14 months. That has to take it toll. i remember a many yrs ago was a dart player who performing briliantly, then got into premier league against top players every week. He Finished bottom, at 1 point lost 8-1 5 weeks in a row ruined his confidence, took a few years to get back competitive & when driving 1 of worst designed McLarens for 25yrs. It doesn't help. But it is like so many people say mental side of sport is so important & more important than physical talent. Like being the greatest golfer but getting the yips putting.
Maybe like palmer said about bottas. When your coming into a weekend knowing/feeling your going to lose & no way to beat your teammate. Its a catch 22
Maybe like palmer said about bottas. When your coming into a weekend knowing/feeling your going to lose & no way to beat your teammate. Its a catch 22
It's true that mental attitude/strength has a lot to do with how competitive any sports person is. If you don't have your head in the right place you can forget it.
Okay my top drivers.
1. Leclerc (as I said before)
2. Raikkonen (after he was announced at Sauber more than before)
3. Vettel
4. Ricciardo
5. Verstappen in races when he actually used his brain
That's all I can say for now, I hope that's enough.
Okay my top drivers.
1. Leclerc (as I said before)
2. Raikkonen (after he was announced at Sauber more than before)
3. Vettel
4. Ricciardo
5. Verstappen in races when he actually used his brain
That's all I can say for now, I hope that's enough.
I think the dice were loaded for Vandoorne against his team mate from the start. I think every team mate Alonso ever had (apart from one very famous one) have been in the same situation.
F1Brits_90
World Champion
Wow you really must hate Hamilton to not even acknowledge his skill.
1. Hamilton
2. Ricciardo
3. Verstappen
= Leclerc
5. Vettel
6. Raikkonen
7. Gasley
8. Bottas
F1Brits_90
World Champion
after 11 votes I thought id give a update on the vote, so you can see how going
1) Hamilton - 243 - (10 Votes)
2) Verstappen - 173 (11)
3) Vettel - 119 (9)
4) Leclerc - 99 - (7)
5) Riccardo - 93 - (7)
6) Alonso - 48 - (5)
7) Raikkonen - 42 (5)
8) Hulkenburg - 28 - (3)
9) Perez - 15 - (4)
10) Gasly - 12 - (2)
11) Ocon - 10 - (3)
12) Magnussen - 10 - (2)
13) Bottas - 7 - (2)
14) Stroll - 6 - (1)
15) Ericsson - 1 - (1)
= 16) Sirotkin, Hartley, Grosjean & Sainz - 0
1) Hamilton - 243 - (10 Votes)
2) Verstappen - 173 (11)
3) Vettel - 119 (9)
4) Leclerc - 99 - (7)
5) Riccardo - 93 - (7)
6) Alonso - 48 - (5)
7) Raikkonen - 42 (5)
8) Hulkenburg - 28 - (3)
9) Perez - 15 - (4)
10) Gasly - 12 - (2)
11) Ocon - 10 - (3)
12) Magnussen - 10 - (2)
13) Bottas - 7 - (2)
14) Stroll - 6 - (1)
15) Ericsson - 1 - (1)
= 16) Sirotkin, Hartley, Grosjean & Sainz - 0
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1 - Hamilton - Really struggling to think of any mistakes, the only disappointing race I can recall is was the Canadian GP. Stole victories (and the title) from Vettel in Germany, Hungary and Italy in an inferior car. Sublime.
2 - Alonso - Still not a fan of the man, but I respect the driver. Always extracts the maximum and beat some of the highly rated midfielders (Leclerc, Ocon) in a considerably worse car.
3 - Verstappen - Terrible start to the season, but was superb post qualifying in Monaco. Ricciardo couldn't touch him for much of the season.
4 - Leclerc - A rough first three races but really kicked on from Azerbaijan. Fully deserves his promotion and will be the first real test for Vettel since Ricciardo.
5 - Vettel - Showed he's a supremely fast driver on his day, unfortunately he also showed he's prone to pressure. I can remember 7 weekends where he didn't extract the maximum from the car.
6 - Ricciardo - Fantastic when he's in the groove and god help you if he's behind you!! The best overtaker by some margin, his move on Hamilton in China made my jaw drop! He was hampered by bad luck, but half the time he found himself having to make overtakes it was because he couldn't match Verstappen for speed.
7 - Ocon - Just shades it over Perez for me and can count himself mightily unlucky (or just poor!) not to have a race seat for next year. I want to see him in the second Mercedes in 2020 to see if he can fulfil the potential he showed in junior formulas.
8 - Raikkonen - Actually he wasn't a total disappointment for once, ironic that his best season (since his return) would be his last with the Scuderia. Was largely put in the shadow by Vettel but at times he reminded us what a driver he used to be.
9/10 - Perez/Hulkenberg - Both dependable drivers you can count on to deliver the points and they did just that. Solid, if unspectacular.
2 - Alonso - Still not a fan of the man, but I respect the driver. Always extracts the maximum and beat some of the highly rated midfielders (Leclerc, Ocon) in a considerably worse car.
3 - Verstappen - Terrible start to the season, but was superb post qualifying in Monaco. Ricciardo couldn't touch him for much of the season.
4 - Leclerc - A rough first three races but really kicked on from Azerbaijan. Fully deserves his promotion and will be the first real test for Vettel since Ricciardo.
5 - Vettel - Showed he's a supremely fast driver on his day, unfortunately he also showed he's prone to pressure. I can remember 7 weekends where he didn't extract the maximum from the car.
6 - Ricciardo - Fantastic when he's in the groove and god help you if he's behind you!! The best overtaker by some margin, his move on Hamilton in China made my jaw drop! He was hampered by bad luck, but half the time he found himself having to make overtakes it was because he couldn't match Verstappen for speed.
7 - Ocon - Just shades it over Perez for me and can count himself mightily unlucky (or just poor!) not to have a race seat for next year. I want to see him in the second Mercedes in 2020 to see if he can fulfil the potential he showed in junior formulas.
8 - Raikkonen - Actually he wasn't a total disappointment for once, ironic that his best season (since his return) would be his last with the Scuderia. Was largely put in the shadow by Vettel but at times he reminded us what a driver he used to be.
9/10 - Perez/Hulkenberg - Both dependable drivers you can count on to deliver the points and they did just that. Solid, if unspectacular.
You know what jumps out at me on this thread? The lack of anything good to say about Carlos Sainz. He probably would have made most peoples (and mine) top ten for last 3 season but this year was shown up in a big way. Now the question you have to ask is it because he had an exceptional poor season or because he went to play ball in Hulkenbergs back yard and was very much shown up.
If it's the second one it has to be a nagging doubt in Danny Rics mind. Let's remember that Carlos gave Max a run for his money at times at Torro Rosso. Maybe Hulkenberg really is that good.
If it's the second one it has to be a nagging doubt in Danny Rics mind. Let's remember that Carlos gave Max a run for his money at times at Torro Rosso. Maybe Hulkenberg really is that good.
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I think there's a reasonable chance Hulkenberg may come out on top, Verstappen has shown that Ricciardo can be beaten for speed and next year the rules around minimum driver weights change. Hulkenberg has always been one the drivers most disadvantaged from this so his relative competitiveness has the potential to improve.
F1Brits_90
World Champion
You have a point RasputinLives Because when i was doing the provisional update table. I thought id do & equal last. Could remember 19 but really struggled to recall 20th. I had to double check everyone's submissions Because like you say, i thought its so unlikely that nobody has voted for sainz. Must be a mistake.
But this season has been very damaging, he was the next red bull driver. But beaten convincingly by hulkenburg (who if their was any justice his talent should be in top car) but most damming critizerm comes from renault. Because the effort arguments with renault. Remember 1 in suzuka they went to over 2-3 years trying to sign him. Getting him released early from the toro rosso contract, To then bin him off after 13 races. Ouch
But this season has been very damaging, he was the next red bull driver. But beaten convincingly by hulkenburg (who if their was any justice his talent should be in top car) but most damming critizerm comes from renault. Because the effort arguments with renault. Remember 1 in suzuka they went to over 2-3 years trying to sign him. Getting him released early from the toro rosso contract, To then bin him off after 13 races. Ouch
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Ruslan
Podium Finisher
Still not done yet ranking the drivers.....right now, I have them ranked 1) Hamilton, 2) Alonso, 3) Vettel, 4) Verstappen, 5) Ricciardo, 6) Ocon, 7) Perez, 8) Hulkenberg, 9) Sainz. Now let me look at Riakonnen and Grosjean, who are hard to compare against the rest.
Grosjean teamed with Alonso in 2009 that was a disaster (I am sure Van Doorne knows the feeling):
Alonso versus Grosjean
................Qual........On Track.........Points
2009.........7-0..........4-0..................13-0
He then teamed with Raikkonen for two seasons
Raikkonen versus Grosjean
...............Qual...........On Track...........Points
2012.......9-10............9-2....................207-96
2013.......11-6............7-4...................183-114
------------------------------------------------------------
...............20-16..........16-6.................390-210
While Grosjean did a credible performance, Raikkonen was clearly better. There is no way to directly compare them to the Ocon/Perez/Hulkenberg cluster (who are all pretty equal to each other), but the different between two drivers lead me to place Raikkonen above that cluster and Grosjean below the cluster. This is somewhat of a judgment call.
By the way, Raikkonen did team with Alonso the year after.
Alonso versus Raikkonen
..............Qual.........On Track..............Points
2014.......16-3.........15-1....................161-55
That is a pretty one-sided result, indicating that Alonso is kind of in a different league that Raikkonen (and when Alonso was teamed with rookie Hamilton in 2007 they were equal).
Raikkonen was them teamed with Vettel for four (long) years:
Vettel versus Raikkonen
2015.......15-4...........10-3...........278-150
2016.......10-11.........10-3...........212-186
2017........15-5...........13-2..........317-205
2018........17-4............8-8...........320-251
------------------------------------------------------
.................57-24.........41-16........1127-692
Now.....Alonso outperformed Raikkonen more than Vettel did....so one could use that as an argument that Alonso is better than Vettel....but there are several reasons to rate Alonso over Vettel. Clearly Raikkonen is below either of them.
So if Raikkonen gets slotted above Ocon/Perez/Hulkenberg.....and below Alonso and Vettel, then were does he fit compared to Verstappen and Ricciardo? The only real comparison we have is the season Ricciardo shared with Vettel, and it was a weird season for Vettel, who notoriously underperformed:
Vettel versus Ricciardo
2014......8-11..........3-11....................167-238
So, I think by default, I have to place Raikkonen below Ricciardo. This still puts him above Ocon, which I have some doubts about.
As for Grosjean, while I generally consider him in the same league as Ocon/Perez/Hulkenberg, he does have some inconsistent seasons. So I have to rate him below them....but I will slot him in above Sainz (which knocks Sainz out of the top 10).
Next (and last): Leclerc and Gasly.
Grosjean teamed with Alonso in 2009 that was a disaster (I am sure Van Doorne knows the feeling):
Alonso versus Grosjean
................Qual........On Track.........Points
2009.........7-0..........4-0..................13-0
He then teamed with Raikkonen for two seasons
Raikkonen versus Grosjean
...............Qual...........On Track...........Points
2012.......9-10............9-2....................207-96
2013.......11-6............7-4...................183-114
------------------------------------------------------------
...............20-16..........16-6.................390-210
While Grosjean did a credible performance, Raikkonen was clearly better. There is no way to directly compare them to the Ocon/Perez/Hulkenberg cluster (who are all pretty equal to each other), but the different between two drivers lead me to place Raikkonen above that cluster and Grosjean below the cluster. This is somewhat of a judgment call.
By the way, Raikkonen did team with Alonso the year after.
Alonso versus Raikkonen
..............Qual.........On Track..............Points
2014.......16-3.........15-1....................161-55
That is a pretty one-sided result, indicating that Alonso is kind of in a different league that Raikkonen (and when Alonso was teamed with rookie Hamilton in 2007 they were equal).
Raikkonen was them teamed with Vettel for four (long) years:
Vettel versus Raikkonen
2015.......15-4...........10-3...........278-150
2016.......10-11.........10-3...........212-186
2017........15-5...........13-2..........317-205
2018........17-4............8-8...........320-251
------------------------------------------------------
.................57-24.........41-16........1127-692
Now.....Alonso outperformed Raikkonen more than Vettel did....so one could use that as an argument that Alonso is better than Vettel....but there are several reasons to rate Alonso over Vettel. Clearly Raikkonen is below either of them.
So if Raikkonen gets slotted above Ocon/Perez/Hulkenberg.....and below Alonso and Vettel, then were does he fit compared to Verstappen and Ricciardo? The only real comparison we have is the season Ricciardo shared with Vettel, and it was a weird season for Vettel, who notoriously underperformed:
Vettel versus Ricciardo
2014......8-11..........3-11....................167-238
So, I think by default, I have to place Raikkonen below Ricciardo. This still puts him above Ocon, which I have some doubts about.
As for Grosjean, while I generally consider him in the same league as Ocon/Perez/Hulkenberg, he does have some inconsistent seasons. So I have to rate him below them....but I will slot him in above Sainz (which knocks Sainz out of the top 10).
Next (and last): Leclerc and Gasly.
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A view obviously not shared by McLaren who have signed him in a bit of bold move by them. You have to go all the way back to 1994 to find a McLaren driver pairing who did not have a race victory between them - and further still prior to that. I'm sure the Sainz signing was influenced by Fernando but they must be sure of him considering these were other options on the market.
I think Carlos is on a hiding to nothing against Norris though. If be beats him then no big deal be should have done and if he doesn't then it's career ending. All this in a team Norris has been part of for years!
Publius Cornelius Scipio
Points Scorer
Ruslan great post! As for Raikkonen I think that when he wants he can be seriously fast, his problem IMHO is his attitude.
Vettel apparently needs to be pampered by the team. Re Grosjean I wouldn't place him at the same level as Ocon/Perez/Hulk (Perez gave a very hard time to Hulkenberg when they were team mates).
IMHO the top 3 are (in alphabetical order)
- Alonso, great racecraft, IMHO overall still top dog
- Hamilton, I'd say the fastest of them all right now
- Vettel, a hammer, in the right conditions he's very hard to beat (but that's the problem, it's that "in the right conditions"...)
Vettel apparently needs to be pampered by the team. Re Grosjean I wouldn't place him at the same level as Ocon/Perez/Hulk (Perez gave a very hard time to Hulkenberg when they were team mates).
IMHO the top 3 are (in alphabetical order)
- Alonso, great racecraft, IMHO overall still top dog
- Hamilton, I'd say the fastest of them all right now
- Vettel, a hammer, in the right conditions he's very hard to beat (but that's the problem, it's that "in the right conditions"...)
Ruslan
Podium Finisher
Agree entirely. This is the challenge with evaluating him...is that you always kind of know the guy is better than his results. The large number of fastest laps that he has (3rd highest ever) indicates what is possible.
Well, all four "top drivers" have their own unique weaknesses, but Vettel is the one that seems the least consistent.
Yes, but would you place him ahead of Sainz?[/QUOTE]
The trouble with Raikkonen is that he can be a lot faster than he often is, I always think. He proves it at some races when the fit takes him, trouble is the fit doesn't take him as often as it should. Most of the time he's not driving at full tilt I always think, he's going at Kimi's 'I can't be bothered to push' speed.
Raikkonen knows that he is the number 2 driver but if he senses he has a chance for the win he pulls his socks up.
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