Grand Prix 2012 Malaysian Grand Prix Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

Someone other than Vettel is leading the Championship!

It may be strange to see, but for the first time since Abu Dhabi 2010 someone other than Sebastian Vettel is top of the Championship after Jenson Button won the Australian Grand Prix in commanding fashion with Vettel second and a folorn Hamilton falling foul of a safety car which allowed the German through.

Going into Malaysia it seems apparent that Mclaren have the strongest car as they were far and away the strongest team in Australia and it was only after having to fuel save for 90% of the race that let Red Bull get within distance, when Button and Hamilton were at full throttle for the first 8 laps, they pulled away at over a second a lap which provided a comfortable cushion even though it was wiped out by a safety car due to Vitaly Petrov breaking down on the main straight.

But the Australian Grand Prix raised more questions than it did provide answers, the only thing that we learned was that the not quite so new teams are still as bad as they were last season and Mclaren and Red Bull are the two fastest teams. Ferrari had a shocking qualifying but Fernando Alonso managed to drag it kicking and screaming into 5th place which suggests a better race pace compared to qualifying pace while beleaguered Felipe Massa trundled around in midfield like he was on a Sunday drive in the Australian parks.

lotus are the only team where a question mark still remains about the general competitiveness. Roman Grosjean qualified a remarkable third but was taken out early on by Maldando while returning champion Kimi Raikkonnen failed to get out of first qualifying but managed to fight through the field to finish a very strong seventh which suggests that they do have a strong car but need to ally qualifying with race pace if they are to take the fight to the top teams.

In 2011 Malaysia was a race full of pit stops due to the high degradation of the Pirelli tyres, and while the tyres this year are more conservative and stable, high degradation is still to be expecting and several pit stops are going to be the norm with an unpredictable weekend to come. The only thing to expect is the likelihood of a massive shower at some point during the weekend which would no doubt spice things up.

For Galahad's excellent circuit write up, see here http://cliptheapex.com/pages/sepang-international-circuit/

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Though I agree that Vettel not being a racer is a tad over-critical, the fact is that only 16.7% of his wins have come from positions other than pole. Those comparing him to Schumacher should know that Michael actually won more races not on pole, than from pole (54.9%). Others of interest are:

Jenson Button 69.2%
Kimi Raikkonen 66.67%
Lewis Hamilton 47.1%
Fernando Alonso 44.4%

Now that's the kind of statistics explain very well why I think the jury is still out on Vettel.

 

[johnnoble1990]

Now that's the kind of statistics explain very well why I think the jury is still out on Vettel.

Agreed, although I don't think people should take this as a slight. The only way to have a decent debate on these things is an open mind.

 

[johnnoble1990]

Now that's the kind of statistics explain very well why I think the jury is still out on Vettel.

I should point out though that the originally quoted percentage is wrong. It is actually 23.8%, though the point stands I feel, especially when looking at his non-pole wins.

 

[FB]

Yeah, and the jury is still out on Michael Schumacher even though he has won 7 World Titles Oh, and whilst we are at it, Lewis Hamilton never served an "apprenticeship" in a lower team but just waltzed straight into his seat at Mclaren which completely devalues all of his achievements. An Jenson Button was just a journey man until Brawn gave him a car that was so fast he couldn't not win (wait, I might have started that one )

We can all find reason to justify our own preferences and prejudices but it is ridiculous to belittle someone's achievements because "you don't like them".

 

[johnnoble1990]

I'd agree the jury is still out on Lewis and Jenson. I'm getting tired of these assumptions that an argument for something, is against another thing. I'd perhaps say that Michael Schumacher and Fernando Alonso have proven themselves more so than others though.

 

[johnnoble1990]

Though I agree that Vettel not being a racer is a tad over-critical, the fact is that only 23.8% of his wins have come from positions other than pole. Those comparing him to Schumacher should know that Michael actually won more races not on pole, than from pole (54.9%). Others of interest are:

Jenson Button 69.2% (9)
Kimi Raikkonen 66.67% (12)
Michael Schumacher 54.9% (50)
Lewis Hamilton 47.1% (8)
Fernando Alonso 44.4% (12)
Sebastian Vettel 23.8% (5)

Although this is limited by the fact that Sebastian tends to qualify well, it does show he is still to prove himself in the field as of those 5 wins, only once did he start outside the top 2 (3rd) and took the lead at the first corner, 2 of them he started 2nd and took the lead into the first corner and the other 2 he jumped into the lead at the pit stop phase.

Obviously it is a tad unfair to only look at non-poles in a balanced argument. Pole conversion rates are:

Fernando Alonso 75.00% (15/20)
Michael Schumacher 60.29% (41/68)
Jenson Button 57.14% (4/7)
Sebastian Vettel 53.33% (16/30)
Lewis Hamilton 42.86% (9/21)
Kimi Raikkonen 37.50% (6/16)

 

[FB]

You seem to be misunderstanding the irony/sarcasm in my post John. The jury is not out on any of these drivers because they have won races and titles and have proven themselves to be the best amongst their peers and, frankly, I get sick to death of people belittling their achievements because they can't/won't like them and certainly won't give them any credit for what they have achieved.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

We can all find reason to justify our own preferences and prejudices but it is ridiculous to belittle someone's achievements because "you don't like them".

FB. Nobody is being personal and I certainly haven't stated a dislike for any driver. I would prefer if you did not make assumptions about my motives.

Also, and I know you have directed that at John but, I am not belittling anybody's achievements. As an interested spectator I like to make appraisals of a driver's skills and levels of performance based on a number of criteria. A holistic appraisal if you like. This is an evolving appraisal where my evaluation may change as more information, data and observations come to light.

Please respect my desire to do this without denigrating the conversation by implying personal vendettas, preferences or other such childish things.

 

[GermanF1]

I'd agree the jury is still out on Lewis and Jenson.

Nonsense (I'm really not able to find another word, as I'm stunned in disbelief). How anyone can say that is far beyond me. And I don't think I will take part in those particular discussions anymore, as I don't see any sense in them. All these guys are World Champions (Seb even a double WDC)...

 

[FB]

I think the jury is still out on Vettel.

Sorry EN but to accuse me of being childish when you write something as puerile as this about this someone who has won 21 Grands Prix and two World Championships is rather ironic don't you think? You are entitled to your opinion but I question your motivation for such a statement.

Anyway, I'll leave it there.

 

[johnnoble1990]

Nonsense (I'm really not able to find another word, as I'm stunned in disbelief). How anyone can say that is far beyond me. And I don't think I will take part in those particular discussions anymore, as I don't see any sense in them. All these guys are World Champions (Seb even a double WDC)...

Okay. Okay. Don't get carried away. I meant jury out on exactly how good each of them are relative to one another. Not that they are possibly all rubbish. I personally think Lewis will go on to be the best driver in F1 for a while, others will disagree. We are the jury.

 

[GermanF1]

Okay. Okay. Don't get carried away. I meant jury out on exactly how good these people are. Not that they are possibly all rubbish. I personally think Lewis will go on to be the best driver in F1 for a while, others will disagree. We are the jury.

Ok I can live with that, maybe I was being too harsh on you. I'm sorry...

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Sorry EN but to accuse me of being childish when you write something as puerile as this about this someone who has won 21 Grands Prix and two World Championships is rather ironic don't you think? You are entitled to your opinion but I question your motivation for such a statement.

Anyway, I'll leave it there.

So you respond by doing the same thing again and then stamp it with something along the lines of "That is the last word on the matter, and it is mine".

You are also being very selective with your quotes. you could have pointed at this, but you chose to ignore it...

Also, and I know you have directed that at John but, I am not belittling anybody's achievements. As an interested spectator I like to make appraisals of a driver's skills and levels of performance based on a number of criteria. A holistic appraisal if you like. This is an evolving appraisal where my evaluation may change as more information, data and observations come to light.

Now let's truncate the above with the quote you did make.

I think the jury is still out on Vettel.

You see now how selective you are being? By all means disagree with me, but don't presume to know my motives. That is extremely arrogant and self interested. I respect your opinions but I cannot respect this approach to making your arguments by dismissing other's through your perceived understandings, which are way off the mark, of other people's motivations.

 

[johnnoble1990]

Ok I can live with that, maybe I was being too harsh on you. I'm sorry...

I've stated a few times in recent weeks I think we have a golden generation right now, of sorts, right the way through the grid. Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso, Raikkonen, Schumacher and Button are probably all better than previous decades drivers all the way back to Hakkinen. We are incredibly fortunate to have every world champion since 1999 on the grid right now. I think if anything that makes the debate more interesting. Out of these top drivers, in 20 years we will probably still be having the argument of who was better and a lot of that will come from the current decade

 

[Hamberg]

Vettel made a bad mistake.

Just scanned this thread and have seen most including myself agree that was a Vettel mistake. What do people make of this quote then.

"To then lose the race how I did is very frustrating. Some people need to look more where they are going"

And then Horner

"After his stop he came up to the HRT who hit him and caused a puncture."

May have to rewatch the 'incident' however I thought Vettel cut back in to early?

 

[Il_leone]

If you listen to the interview Karthikeyan says that he was out wide on the slippery white line/marbles and had to turn in - no choice or he would crash. He turned some way in but also Vettel cut to close to him, 50/50 I would say but no reason to be quite as condemning as RBR have been.

Maybe because Horner, Vettel and the rest of Red Bull realise they have a fight on their hands and can't disappear into the distance without the fastest car

 

[Il_leone]

But the main difference is the way both teams deal with it, I guess. Red Bull seem pretty disgusting to me at the moment (Vettel, Horner, Marko), except for Mark Webber, who is as cool as ever

I think Webber will be happy he is beating Vettel and the lead Red Bull driver now before any further pressures or quotes about replacing him starts winding him up along with the team politics

 

[Il_leone]

I've stated a few times in recent weeks I think we have a golden generation right now, of sorts, right the way through the grid. Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso, Raikkonen, Schumacher and Button are probably all better than previous decades drivers all the way back to Hakkinen. We are incredibly fortunate to have every world champion since 1999 on the grid right now. I think if anything that makes the debate more interesting. Out of these top drivers, in 20 years we will probably still be having the argument of who was better and a lot of that will come from the current decade

I think the last time this sort of generation existed was in the mid to late 80s when you had Senna, Prost, Mansell, Berger and Piquet in decent machinery that were winning races although Senna extracted way more out of the Lotuses than people realised

 

[Vortex]

If I’m honest I think I the level of driver today is no different from 10, 20 or more years ago… they’ve all been bloody great!
The only difference is when Schumacher was in his prime he was so good, for so long, dominated the stats for so long it made the rest of the field look lesser. Id say its because we had an unusual talent in Schumacher and we don’t have one now, rather than we have half a dozen or more Schumachers on the grid today. Even Schumacher today isn’t the Schumacher in his prime.

 

[Chad Stewarthill]

We can all find reason to justify our own preferences and prejudices but it is ridiculous to belittle someone's achievements because "you don't like them".

Aww, where's the fun in that? I've been belittling Schumacher's achievements since 13 November 1994!