Grand Prix 2012 Chinese Grand Prix Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

Racking up the air miles now

Going into the third race of the 2012 season and it is still unclear where everyone lies in true race pace over a normal dry race without the intervention of a safety car apart from that McLaren have done the best job of the teams with Red Bull and Mercedes not too far apart but Mercedes seem to be struggling with higher levels of tyre degradation compared to the other front runners.

Despite all the highly publicised problems at Ferrari, Fernando Alonso currently leads the Championship after a 5th place in Australia and an against the odds victory in Malaysia where the rain early on managed to put Alonso in the lead when the others struggled. However this doesn't mean things are rosy in Maranello as when the track dried up Alonso started to fall back and was being hunted down by none other than Sergio Perez in the Sauber who was closing in rapidly on the Spaniard only to make a minor mistake with a couple of laps to go which ruined his chances of a maiden victory, but he was understandably delighted to finish in second place. Lewis Hamilton showed that he is a more rounded driver than he was in 2011 with a second consecutive third place showing he has the maturity to make the best of a bad job when circumstances were against him when he was caught out by the pit stops (like he was in Australia) to not make any mistakes and bring the car home in third place for 15 points which could be crucial at the end of the season.

On the other hand, team mate Jenson Button had a characteristically poor race after running second early on, but after outbraking himself he broke his front wing trying to overtake an HRT who was running there on position after an early gamble for wets paid off as when the red flag fell, Narain was running in 10th place which shocked fans worldwide. The red flag was also (im)famous for the introduction of gazebos all down the grid, something previously pioneered by Mercedes in Canada last season.

2012 has seen (so far) probably one of the most competitive midfields in many seasons with Force India, Sauber, Williams and Toro Rosso all pushing the top teams for points and Sauber have already claimed a podium through Perez and it could be said that on pure one lap pace, most of these teams are as quick as if not faster than Ferrari, certainly faster than Felipe Massa who is really coming under pressure for his seat after 2 mediocre performances so far while Alonso continued to drag the car to places where it shouldn't really be.

Looking ahead to China and it has been a track which has favoured McLaren in recent years with Lewis Hamilton winning in 2008 and 2011 and Jenson Button winning in the rain affected 2010 race. Hamilton should have won in 2007 but famously threw it away in the pitlane after running wide on very used tyres when he was in a position to win the Championship, something with now Lotus driver Kimi Raikkonen took advantage of to win the race and eventually steal the Championship in Brazil.

China will also be an importunity to be the first true comparison of Sky and BBC as it is the first race that will be shown live on BBC and it will certainly be very interesting to see where the two broadcasters shape up over a full race weekend and it will show to people in their own minds which one is better and it is pretty clear that it certainly won't be a clear cut thing and will be down more to personal preference than the overall package compared to the other.

For Galahad's brilliant circuit write up, see here http://cliptheapex.com/pages/shanghai-international-circuit/

 

[Jos the Boss]

The sauber of Kamui knows how to look after it's tyres so I have a feeling it will stay out longest and come lap 15 lead maybe? The Merc's will have to be on a 3 stop strategy, Lewis Hamilton might go for 2 though I think

 

[Bill Boddy]

Just as long as they are not in the same team ...just like Alonso and Kubica

I realise that you have to try to get a dig in at Alonso every time his name comes up but as with your last few there is no evidence whatever that Alonso would not get on with any of the drivers that you have mentioned. He has even said that he would drive with Hamilton again as long as it was not at McLaren.

 

[the_roadie]

I think everyone should be upbeat, even Vettel and Button who both underperformed, especially Vettel out of the two as it could have been much worse.

Actually just about eveyone can "take positives" out of this race, and they haven't even lined up yet.
Merc drivers got a front-row lock-out for the first time since 1955 - "Deutchland uber alles" and mickey-taking apart that is an achievement.
Hamilton qualified 2nd, and a 5-place grid drop from 2nd is a bloody sight better than a 5-place grid drop from, say, 9th. "Phew!"
Button benefits one place from HAM's grid drop and now starts 5th on the clean side of the grid. "Jolly Good show"
Sauber because they start line abreast 3rd and 4th - "Wow!!"
Renault got both drivers into the pole-position shootout, RAI starts 4th after qualifying 5th - "Yippee!" (though he'll be far more monosyllabic than that).
Webber gained a place because of HAM's 5-place drop - Ripper!!
Ferrari in probably their worst car in my lifetime (and I am pretty old) still got a driver in the top-10. "Avanti Ferrari"
After Massa, all the other teams start with each driver on the same row as his teammate - a regular Noah's Ark of F1 drivers.

(Just showing off my doctorate in rotational medicine - "spin doctor" if you prefer.)

However it's not all positive for everyone, for the purposes of balanced reporting there is one tragedy. Fingerboy starts 11th because he failed to make the top-10 for the first time in 40-something races. Couldn't happen to a nicer digit.

 

[teabagyokel]

Kimi: "Imveryhappygivemesomeicecream"

 

[tranquility2k9]

Can I just clarify something that I know many people were confused about yesterday, but it seemed to actually get concluded wrongly. If Hamilton would have got pole position then it would have counted officially as a pole position for him on the records.

On the BBC coverage they clarified this and said the difference is that his penalty is classed as a race penalty and thus it applies to the race starting grid but does not effect the official qualifying result. The other type of penalty would be a qualifying penalty, such as Hungary 2007 when it did effect the result of pole officially.

This makes sense and at least we will all now know for the future!

 

[tranquility2k9]

A very strange but exciting qualifying session. I think ultimately Mercedes with their super DRS were always going to be very quick here, but other than that, when conditions were more normal the pecking order looked broadly the same, with the exception of Sauber who have clearly got even quicker with their latest upgrades (specifically to their exhaust and rear wing).

The tyres this year are intruiging, they are closer and faster than last year, which is good, with degradation seeming about the same, but getting them into the right operating window is vastly different. It seems every team has a different optimum window and it is fairly small. McLaren seem to have a slightly wider working range than most and Sauber now seem to be good in all conditions. Interestingly Sauber said last year that because they didn't develop the EBD after mid-season they should be strong in 2012 and they're proving to be right.

I think if conditions had of been normal, Hamilton would have been a bit closer to Rosberg as his only time set in Q3 was on a scrubbed set of soft tyres. I think Webber would have also been close to Hamilton, but Lotus have admitted their upgrades didn't work here so I'd expect them to be slightly further away, but still close. I fully expect in Bahrain for McLaren to be back on pole and for the order to most likely be McLaren, Mercedes, Red Bull, Lotus, although Sauber could be somewhere in there!

I actually think Hamilton will be pretty chuffed though with this grid. He will still classify his main championship rivals as Button, Webber and Vettel and he's ahead of 1 and just behind the other 2.

For the race, I think temperatures could play a large part. If temperatures are cold again, you could find Mercedes do not suffer so much from degradation and could be strong. But if temperatures rise a little I think the fight for victory could be between Kimi, Koboyashi, Webber, Button and Hamilton. All of them have showed very good race pace at times so hopefully we'll have a dry, clean race and get to see who has what.

 

[the_roadie]

I realise that you have to try to get a dig in at Alonso every time his name comes up but as with your last few there is no evidence whatever that Alonso would not get on with any of the drivers that you have mentioned. He has even said that he would drive with Hamilton again as long as it was not at McLaren.

I got the impression that ALO's beef with McLaren wasn't McLaren the team but Ron Dennis the man.
As long as Dennis is connected with McLaren (even outside their F1 team) ALO won't go back, but if Dennis wasn't there at all, who knows?

 

[mjo]

I wonder if, in 5 or 6 races time, we could consider Sauber as a front-runner, regularly fighting for podiums.

 

[Mephistopheles]

As seasons go, so far so good it looks like nobody has an advantage and the truth is coming out about Vettel and Webber I for one never wrote Webber off last year and Vettel isn't as invincible as some people made him out to be...

I wanted a close tight fought season and it looks like I'm going to get one, good riddance to 2011 a bloody awful F1 year..

 

[EvilWhippet]

I think I will beat Whippet to the punch and suggest Heidfeld.

I've heard that one banded around else where. With my beard on I've got to say F1 itself would be embaressed by the quivering mental heap one of it's best champions would be left in after the thorough hammering he'd recieve at the hands of Quick Nick.

With my brain installed it would be a terrible choice. I know Kimi Raikkonen is a far better driver than Giancarlo Fisichello, but the difference was incredible when he replaced Massa/Badoer. Like 09, that Ferrari is difficult to drive and I doubt many drivers out there could get more out of it than Massa is. Unfortunately one of the few who can happens to be doing it race after race and making Massa look pretty bad. If Button was in Massa's seat I think Alonso would be humiliating him, too. He'd have less incdients than Felipe, but given his record with difficult cars he'd be Alonso's whipping boy. As would most of the grid. Raikkonen can drive around problems when he's motivated, as can Hamilton. Apart from those two Alonso probably takes the rest of them apart.

Had Nick been able to get at least one or two full seasons under his belt from 2010 to 2011 and was in the 2012 Ferrari from the start I have no doubt he'd have scored more than Massa. Even when he hits problems, Nick usually finds a way through to score strong on Sunday. Given the way he's been in and out of the sport and would have acquaint himself with a brand new team at a very difficult time for them, I don't think his results would be worth replacing Massa.

 

[RasputinLives]

As seasons go, so far so good it looks like nobody has an advantage and the truth is coming out about Vettel and Webber I for one never wrote Webber off last year and Vettel isn't as invincible as some people made him out to be...

I wanted a close tight fought season and it looks like I'm going to get one, good riddance to 2011 a bloody awful F1 year..

Everyone is very quick on this Webber/Vettel thing me thinks. He's in front of him in quali yes but he's yet to get the better of him come race day as but for Vettel incident with a backmarker he would have been in front in both races so lets not bolt out of the box with the "I knew it was just the car" and "I never criticised Webber" comments for a couple more Grand Prix eh?

Vettel was 11th today but still only 3 tenths slower that 1st in Q2 - hardly completely off the pace.

 

[siffert_fan]

Apparantly Hamilton has set his car up for the race. Button is also hoping for a warm day because he (not everyone apparantly) is unable to heat the front tyres on a cool day. I wouldn't mind Rosberg winning, but I wouldn't bet on it, that Mercedes isn't as fast as a Red Bull or McLaren in race trim in addition to degrading it's tyres faster, but I suppose both Mercs start with a fresh set of softs.

I must say I was happy when I saw Hamilton's reaction to Rosberg's pole. He seems genuinely pleased for Nico, it's a sign that some drivers can be friends at least.

I'm confused. Haven't ALL of the drivers set their cars up for race trim?

The last time I bothered to check, all of the cars are put in Parc Ferme after qualifying and no changes are allowed. If a car is set up to do only one or two super-quick qualifying laps at the detriment to their race performance, I would think that they would go backward at warp speed, making their qualifying perfomance irrelevant, and probably annoying sponsors to no end. I would see no value to such an arrangement. Has this rule been changed?

 

[the_roadie]

Can I just clarify something that I know many people were confused about yesterday, but it seemed to actually get concluded wrongly. If Hamilton would have got pole position then it would have counted officially as a pole position for him on the records.

On the BBC coverage they clarified this and said the difference is that his penalty is classed as a race penalty and thus it applies to the race starting grid but does not effect the official qualifying result. The other type of penalty would be a qualifying penalty, such as Hungary 2007 when it did effect the result of pole officially.

This makes sense and at least we will all now know for the future!

Seeing as you've raised that point it is worth remembering that on the zDKF1 interforum competition we do (for one forum or another) that they treat it the other way
They score it that whoever starts the race on Sunday is who they count as having qualified on pole - if Hamilton had qualified first (but then taken a grid drop for his gearbox change) and Rosberg had qualified 2nd, on zDKF1 they would have scored Rosberg as polesitter and marked you accordingly.
I always count Quali and race results as they happen on the track and score them as such in competitions I run in other forums, once the chequered flag drops that's me out, I don't see anything !

 

[Viscount]

Everyone is very quick on this Webber/Vettel thing me thinks. He's in front of him in quali yes but he's yet to get the better of him come race day as but for Vettel incident with a backmarker he would have been in front in both races so lets not bolt out of the box with the "I knew it was just the car" and "I never criticised Webber" comments for a couple more Grand Prix eh?

Vettel was 11th today but still only 3 tenths slower that 1st in Q2 - hardly completely off the pace.

According to one of the Renault engineers at Red Bull, Webber is just able to cope with the slightly difficult car currently better than Vettel.

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/webber-coping-better-than-vettel-in-2012-engineer/?v=2&s=1&i=7

"Mark tends to be able to get around the problems and adapt," he said.
"But for Sebastian, each ingredient needs to be at its optimum for him to have full confidence and get the performance out."

 

[the_roadie]

I wonder if, in 5 or 6 races time, we could consider Sauber as a front-runner, regularly fighting for podiums.

Yes that would be fun.
It's about time the list of "usual suspects" was expanded, or even re-drawn,...

... even if it means the loss of Red Bull and therefore STR as well.
They won't take kindly to not winning everything in sight, but if that's how the cards fall then so be it.

 

[Il_leone]

I realise that you have to try to get a dig in at Alonso every time his name comes up but as with your last few there is no evidence whatever that Alonso would not get on with any of the drivers that you have mentioned. He has even said that he would drive with Hamilton again as long as it was not at McLaren.

Kubica had been Ferrari's choice to replace Massa for 2011 .. it was almost a done deal until at the last minute Ferrari announce they will keep Felipe again which is odd given that there are camps at Ferrari that don;t rate Massa..he is the last of Todt's legacy at Ferrari

If you listen to Alonso last year he said Hamilton was a few drivers who can win when the car was not good ..that was a dig at Vettel who was not happy at being forced onto the grass at Monza by Alonso. Also Di Montezemolo been making noises Vettel will drive for Ferrari that is not going to go down well with Alonso either

Out of Hamilton and Vettel .. Alonso would prefer Hamilton as a teammate

 

[Il_leone]

Actually just about eveyone can "take positives" out of this race, and they haven't even lined up yet.
Merc drivers got a front-row lock-out for the first time since 1955 - "Deutchland uber alles" and mickey-taking apart that is an achievement.
Hamilton qualified 2nd, and a 5-place grid drop from 2nd is a bloody sight better than a 5-place grid drop from, say, 9th. "Phew!"
Button benefits one place from HAM's grid drop and now starts 5th on the clean side of the grid. "Jolly Good show"
Sauber because they start line abreast 3rd and 4th - "Wow!!"
Renault got both drivers into the pole-position shootout, RAI starts 4th after qualifying 5th - "Yippee!" (though he'll be far more monosyllabic than that).
Webber gained a place because of HAM's 5-place drop - Ripper!!
Ferrari in probably their worst car in my lifetime (and I am pretty old) still got a driver in the top-10. "Avanti Ferrari"
After Massa, all the other teams start with each driver on the same row as his teammate - a regular Noah's Ark of F1 drivers.

(Just showing off my doctorate in rotational medicine - "spin doctor" if you prefer.)

However it's not all positive for everyone, for the purposes of balanced reporting there is one tragedy. Fingerboy starts 11th because he failed to make the top-10 for the first time in 40-something races. Couldn't happen to a nicer digit.

Button actually took the lead from 2nd on the grid last year so I don;t think the less grippy side is that much handicap

 

[Mephistopheles]

Everyone is very quick on this Webber/Vettel thing me thinks.

so lets not bolt out of the box with the "I knew it was just the car" and "I never criticised Webber" comments for a couple more Grand Prix eh?

Vettel was 11th today but still only 3 tenths slower that 1st in Q2 - hardly completely off the pace.

I haven't noticed that being a common theme on this forum, what I have noticed is a lot of people criticizing Webber for last years performances.

 

[Il_leone]

Seeing as you've raised that point it is worth remembering that on the zDKF1 interforum competition we do (for one forum or another) that they treat it the other way
They score it that whoever starts the race on Sunday is who they count as having qualified on pole - if Hamilton had qualified first (but then taken a grid drop for his gearbox change) and Rosberg had qualified 2nd, on zDKF1 they would have scored Rosberg as polesitter and marked you accordingly.
I always count Quali and race results as they happen on the track and score them as such in competitions I run in other forums, once the chequered flag drops that's me out, I don't see anything !

this was the point we discussed yesterday if on race day whoever starts on pole position grid slot is the pole man
qualifying is only provisional until all incidents , penalties and appeals have been applied and investigated

 

[Il_leone]

According to one of the Renault engineers at Red Bull, Webber is just able to cope with the slightly difficult car currently better than Vettel.

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/webber-coping-better-than-vettel-in-2012-engineer/?v=2&s=1&i=7

The engineer makes it sound Vettel is like Button where the car needs to be perfect to perform