Pirelli 2013 F1 tyre range
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Fenderman
Rooters Reporter
I can't say i know anything about how to make tyres as I've only ever worked with metal, wood, plastics, fabrics, electricity and people. Oh, and perhaps the odd carving out of chalk and stone. What I do know is that if were struggling with tyres that fall off a cliff and disintegrate within ten laps of a race then those would be the ones that I'd want a good look at.. Sure a tweak to make the hard tyres cope better with cooler conditions is a good but the hard compound doesn't seem to be the one some folks are most unhappy with.
What I don't understand is that if they are talking to the teams and have one ear on the rumblings form us, the audience, how come they're not tweaking the softs? So we're going to see super-soft and soft in Monaco, a summer race on the Riviera. Have Pirelli got a spy in the camp of the weather gods? THere probably won't any real issues with the selections for Canada but what happens if after our unusual long and cold winter, we in Europe get an unusually hot few weeks in the summer?
WiIl we see a four-stop Monaco GP? I suppose with little to be gained from DRS there, it will be the only thing to shake up the inevitable procession and if it's wet they won't be on slicks anyway. As for the rest of the European season I guess we'll see races more like the one in Australia which I suppose won't be all that bad. Whatever happens I can't help thinking that the two softer compound tyres are the ones that needed the tweaks. To me a ten lap or less stint in F1 is a nonsense and we're sure to see more of that before the season is out.
What I don't understand is that if they are talking to the teams and have one ear on the rumblings form us, the audience, how come they're not tweaking the softs? So we're going to see super-soft and soft in Monaco, a summer race on the Riviera. Have Pirelli got a spy in the camp of the weather gods? THere probably won't any real issues with the selections for Canada but what happens if after our unusual long and cold winter, we in Europe get an unusually hot few weeks in the summer?
WiIl we see a four-stop Monaco GP? I suppose with little to be gained from DRS there, it will be the only thing to shake up the inevitable procession and if it's wet they won't be on slicks anyway. As for the rest of the European season I guess we'll see races more like the one in Australia which I suppose won't be all that bad. Whatever happens I can't help thinking that the two softer compound tyres are the ones that needed the tweaks. To me a ten lap or less stint in F1 is a nonsense and we're sure to see more of that before the season is out.
F1 Shift.net
Points Scorer
I too thought it was an odd call to tweak the hard. Why make it an even greater gap between the primes and options? But then again, no matter the tires, I'm still gonna watch and love every lap of it.
Blog Zbod
Podium Finisher
"Ferrari says that teams are not unduly concerned by the fact that Formula 1 has yet to secure a new tyre supply contract for next year.
Pirelli has been seeking an extensionof its current deal, but no agreements are yet in place with the teams and the FIA has yet to sanction the move - or open up the official tyre tender process.
With Pirelli well aware of the timeframe needed to prepare tyres for next season, a deal needs to be sorted out in the next few months if F1 is to avoid the risk of being left without a supplier.
Although time is now pressing, Ferrari team principal Stefano Domenicali says that the situation is not yet alarming for F1's competitors because it is inconceivable there will not be a tyre contract in place...."
Pirelli has been seeking an extensionof its current deal, but no agreements are yet in place with the teams and the FIA has yet to sanction the move - or open up the official tyre tender process.
With Pirelli well aware of the timeframe needed to prepare tyres for next season, a deal needs to be sorted out in the next few months if F1 is to avoid the risk of being left without a supplier.
Although time is now pressing, Ferrari team principal Stefano Domenicali says that the situation is not yet alarming for F1's competitors because it is inconceivable there will not be a tyre contract in place...."
Blog Zbod
Podium Finisher
"We want a tire that does not restrict our potential."
-- Dr. Helmut Marko
Here, here. Well spoken, Bruce ...I mean Helmut.
-- Dr. Helmut Marko
Here, here. Well spoken, Bruce ...I mean Helmut.
I think that what he means is he wants tyres that suit Red Bull and no-one else.
Blog Zbod
Podium Finisher
Helmut's boss says that this isn't "classic" racing. That classic races are won by the best driver in the fastest car, not by the one who best manages his tyres (you don't suppose he's been reading my posts?). Which implies what Helmut already said, that the Red Bulls have potential they cannot exploit.
If a man speaks a truth that is self-serving, does that make it any less true?
If a man speaks a truth that is self-serving, does that make it any less true?
Blog Zbod
Podium Finisher
And Dietrich is hardly alone:
"...It was racing, sort of – but not as we used to know it. Just as only Hamilton's defencelessness against a wing-stalling device made this double overtake feasible and conjured up a scene that looked like fantastic racing, so it was with the tyres. 'Let him go, you're not racing him,' said the race engineers' voices to drivers who were on varying tyre strategies, desperately trying to eke out competitive stint lengths. And so that driver would allow the other one to pass – and that too would technically be an overtake and would therefore look to the untrained eye like racing. But it wasn't; it was simply two different strategic wave frequencies interfering...."
-- Mark Hughes, Autosport Plus, on the 2013 GP of China
"...It was racing, sort of – but not as we used to know it. Just as only Hamilton's defencelessness against a wing-stalling device made this double overtake feasible and conjured up a scene that looked like fantastic racing, so it was with the tyres. 'Let him go, you're not racing him,' said the race engineers' voices to drivers who were on varying tyre strategies, desperately trying to eke out competitive stint lengths. And so that driver would allow the other one to pass – and that too would technically be an overtake and would therefore look to the untrained eye like racing. But it wasn't; it was simply two different strategic wave frequencies interfering...."
-- Mark Hughes, Autosport Plus, on the 2013 GP of China
As I believe, classic races we're not always won by the best driver in the fastest car. Chris Amon might testify to that one. They were won by the person who got to the finish by managing the components at his disposal, in the fastest time. And were not struck down by circumstance. And had the better strategy.
Senna passing someone in a car a second or two off the pace is no more appealing than a modern-day pass, and I am convinced there were team principals in 1988 telling drivers not to bother fighting McLaren. Of course, it v seems that because we didn't see that on the TV, ignorance is bliss.
Senna passing someone in a car a second or two off the pace is no more appealing than a modern-day pass, and I am convinced there were team principals in 1988 telling drivers not to bother fighting McLaren. Of course, it v seems that because we didn't see that on the TV, ignorance is bliss.
Blog Zbod
Podium Finisher
Headline in today's print issue of Autosport magazine:
Fragile tyres & DRS
Are they ruining F1?
Yes- Mark Hughes
"We've crossed the line between sport and show"
No- Jonathan Noble
"Do we want to go back to the processional races?"
Except Noble employs the same non sequitur / straw man argument as does Paul Hembery.
The statistical decline in overtaking began at the end of the ground effects era. Previous to that, F1 had not used either disinte-Pirellis or DRS, therefore the cause of the decline could not have been their lack. Ergo eliminating them does not directly correlate to the return of low overtaking.
Obviously it wouldn't work simply to eliminate them, but rules changes of such consequence rarely occur singularly. In for a penny, in for a pound; whilst they're fixing, fix the root problem -- excessive reliance on wing-generated downforce -- and that's an end of it.
And I think Mark Hughes already has made a compelling argument what F1 are peddling now isn't racing, "it [is] simply two different strategic wave frequencies interfering...."
I didn't double post this in any of the DRS threads because I reckoned the mods wouldn't approve, and most of us I think eventually get around to all the active threads anyway.
Fragile tyres & DRS
Are they ruining F1?
Yes- Mark Hughes
"We've crossed the line between sport and show"
No- Jonathan Noble
"Do we want to go back to the processional races?"
Except Noble employs the same non sequitur / straw man argument as does Paul Hembery.
The statistical decline in overtaking began at the end of the ground effects era. Previous to that, F1 had not used either disinte-Pirellis or DRS, therefore the cause of the decline could not have been their lack. Ergo eliminating them does not directly correlate to the return of low overtaking.
Obviously it wouldn't work simply to eliminate them, but rules changes of such consequence rarely occur singularly. In for a penny, in for a pound; whilst they're fixing, fix the root problem -- excessive reliance on wing-generated downforce -- and that's an end of it.
And I think Mark Hughes already has made a compelling argument what F1 are peddling now isn't racing, "it [is] simply two different strategic wave frequencies interfering...."
I didn't double post this in any of the DRS threads because I reckoned the mods wouldn't approve, and most of us I think eventually get around to all the active threads anyway.
Fenderman
Rooters Reporter
Surprise. surprise ... more concerns with de-laminating tyre. This time a layer peels off one of Di Resta's rears in P2. Gary Anderson suspects it's down to the glue between the compound of the "tread" and the carcass overheating and losing its integrity. Clearly issues like that can strike any one of the blokes unpredictably at any time.
A lot has been said with regard to how the dodgy tyres have or have not spiced up the racing but we've definitely entered the territory of safety concerns. Are we going to see a big crash this season when it happens at the "wrong place" at the "wrong time"? I do hope not. Pirelli and the FIA need to go back to that meeting room and rethink about what to tweak. In fact they should stop thinking about tweaks and set about coming up with remedies.
A lot has been said with regard to how the dodgy tyres have or have not spiced up the racing but we've definitely entered the territory of safety concerns. Are we going to see a big crash this season when it happens at the "wrong place" at the "wrong time"? I do hope not. Pirelli and the FIA need to go back to that meeting room and rethink about what to tweak. In fact they should stop thinking about tweaks and set about coming up with remedies.
It's not good enough, tyre wear influencing races is one thing but out of the blue tyre failures are just not acceptable. Two drivers from leading teams were hurt by it at Bahrain (Massa and Hamilton) from no fault of their own, which could end up playing a role in deciding the championship if it continues.
Fenderman
Rooters Reporter
Having just visited the BBC item courtesy of F1ang-o's link I am not impressed by what seems to be PR speak from Paul Hembery. "It's not unusual to have failures," he says and then opines that failures like Di Resta's "don't look good". Sorry, but could he not have the courage to at least mention that safety is a worry? In fact, if Pirelli want to maintain a credible image as a responsible organisation, he should say outright that they are dealing with the issue as a matter of urgency in light of potential safety ramifications.
It reminds me of the Michelin/Indianapolis debacle where only the Bridgestone runners completed the warm up lap and went on to race. Michelin were heavily criticised back then but as a company they actually took a courageous decision when they advised their customers not to race*. I'm not suggesting Pirelli do that but from a business point of view somewhat more bravery might not be a bad thing.
* Michelin advised not racing if the FIA would not authorise a chicane to be installed to slow the pace on the long, fast and banked last turn. The corner speeds were overheating and overstressing the tyre sidewalls causing ... blow me down .. delamination.
It reminds me of the Michelin/Indianapolis debacle where only the Bridgestone runners completed the warm up lap and went on to race. Michelin were heavily criticised back then but as a company they actually took a courageous decision when they advised their customers not to race*. I'm not suggesting Pirelli do that but from a business point of view somewhat more bravery might not be a bad thing.
* Michelin advised not racing if the FIA would not authorise a chicane to be installed to slow the pace on the long, fast and banked last turn. The corner speeds were overheating and overstressing the tyre sidewalls causing ... blow me down .. delamination.
Proper tyres
Interesting comment from Adrian Newey at the engineers press conference about the tyres in GP2. He feels they go off too quickly as well meaning the drivers don't get enough "seat time" to prepare them for F1. Looks like a problem through all the series as I'm watching the GP3 qualie and they have tyre wear issues too.
Fenderman
Rooters Reporter
Andrew Benson reports latest variation of Paul Hembery reassurance: "'It's similar to the (failures of the) other tyres we've seen this season,' Hembery said. 'When we made the move to putting high-tensile steel in the belt pack, when you get debris cutting the tyre it doesn't penetrate it. Instead the tread heats up and comes away. Last year it would probably have deflated the on the rim and gone down immediately. So we've changed the mode of failure. You could argue it's safer because the tyre hasn't gone down."
Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't see any "new" kinds of debris on the tracks these days so how is it any less of a concern that the tyres are apparently so sensitive to debris this season?
A tyre without it's "tread" layer is not going to give any grip so how is it any less of a concern if the delamination takes place earlier in a corner? It's only sheer good luck that so far the failures have happened when the drivers have had time to react. What will happen if a tyre shreds just as the driver puts the hammer down on the exit of a fast corner? Come to think of it, how about in the process of a racing overtake at the moment of a sharp change of direction with the DRS open?
Sorry, but Hembery hasn't reassured me in the slightest. If anything I'm more worried about Pirelli's stance now than I was yesterday!
Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't see any "new" kinds of debris on the tracks these days so how is it any less of a concern that the tyres are apparently so sensitive to debris this season?
A tyre without it's "tread" layer is not going to give any grip so how is it any less of a concern if the delamination takes place earlier in a corner? It's only sheer good luck that so far the failures have happened when the drivers have had time to react. What will happen if a tyre shreds just as the driver puts the hammer down on the exit of a fast corner? Come to think of it, how about in the process of a racing overtake at the moment of a sharp change of direction with the DRS open?
Sorry, but Hembery hasn't reassured me in the slightest. If anything I'm more worried about Pirelli's stance now than I was yesterday!
I agree that what has happened in the last two races have crossed the line. Safety must come first so they need to make sure this doesn't happen again. What is worrying is the apparent random and sudden nature of failures. Di Resta was only six laps into a run, I think. He might have been on used tyres, I don't know, but his laptimes before were in the 31s, so it was not like he was at the end of their life.
These problems have occurred at two of the three hardest tracks on tyres, did anything nearly happen in Malaysia do we know?
I just hope Pirelli understandthis better than they are letting on. I wouldn't blame them if they were trying to fix it quietly. It would worry me if they weren't trying to fix it at all. There is a difference between what Hemberey has to say and what he has to do.
These problems have occurred at two of the three hardest tracks on tyres, did anything nearly happen in Malaysia do we know?
I just hope Pirelli understandthis better than they are letting on. I wouldn't blame them if they were trying to fix it quietly. It would worry me if they weren't trying to fix it at all. There is a difference between what Hemberey has to say and what he has to do.
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