Grand Prix 2018 Brazilian Grand Prix Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

Discussion in 'Formula One Discussion' started by cider_and_toast, Nov 4, 2018.

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  1. RasputinLives

    RasputinLives Happy to be me again Contributor

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    Having just seen the video of the handbags at dawn between Max and Ocon I'd like to point out a couple of things:

    a) It was really not the fisticuffs the media made it out to be

    b) Community service? What?

    c) As soon as Ocon stood his ground Max didn't know what to do and left which indicates to me he has never had a fight in his life and was hoping to bluff it out

    d)Ocon was very careful to keep his arms wide to show he wasn't retaliating which indicates to me he knew the camera were on them.
     
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  3. olegg

    olegg Race Winner

    Esteban and Max have a long history of mutual rivalry.
    And it is strangely all the blame for what happened gave to one driver.
    And even more so to bring under this inter-team conspiracy .
    Nothing would have happened if Max, as he often did, turn off his head
    and rushed to cut the turn there where it was not needed.
    Especially having such a reserve of speed and race leadership.
     
  4. Dartman

    Dartman Points Scorer

    Max drives like Max, he doesn't like being overtaken, whether for a place or someone unlapping Max mustn't be overtaken.:bawl:
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2018
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  5. Angel

    Angel Points Scorer Supporter

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    Any sympathy I had for Max over what happened on track evaporated when I saw what happened off it. Max has learnt from his daddy how to behave then it seems. Shoving another driver, three times when he didn't retaliate is wrong and Max deserved a penalty for that.

    RasputinLives Camera's are everywhere these days, so Max should have realised it, much like Ocon did. His temper just got the better of him. I understand why he was angry but that wasn't the best way to deal with it.
     
  6. F1Brits_90

    F1Brits_90 Race Winner

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    yes very good point im assuming he didnt have the same confidence under brakes that max had.
    _______________________________________

    Max couldve done things but the blame is on 1 person because a guy in 16th forg he was the leader & was 3/4 car ahead & proved by the only people defending ocon is force India because they have to. All drivers on sky were on verstappen side & villenueve has supported him. You can unlap yourself, but do it properly. You’re not allowed to put the leader at risk at all. You don’t do something that loses time for the other driver, and is taking a risk.

    What makes it even worse is that he didnt even apologise for ruining the leader race. Which if he came out said "my bad" but he was trying to justify it & blaming Verstappen in the weighing room, physical violence is never the answer but I thought with all the adrenaline he would've had a case to knock him out. for everything max could done it all comes to ocon should've yeiled going into T2 as he was lapped
     
  7. Ocon didn't put the leader at risk, the leader closed the door on a faster backmarker, Ocon had nowhere to go, either Max defened his position properly (ie taking Ocon to the outside of turn 1) or he should have let him through, when they commited to turn 2 Ocon had already gained his position because he was on the inside and had Max kept his line (ie outside) he would have lost it out to Ocon. What's even sillier is the fact that had Max let Ocon through he would have been able to overtaking him in a matter of seconds as they were coming into a DRS zone and Ocon would have had blue flags, Max' move was very silly because he had the chance to make up some time by using the DRS and he squandered it by driving into another driver who, at that stage, had nowhere else to go.

    I would also like to point out that under the current regulations Max had to leave enough room to Ocon to keep on the tarmac, and sadly he didn't.

    Then if someone want to argue that a backmarker shouldn't be allowed to unlap himself that is another matter, that was the view of Jarno Trulli (the guy famous for being called the "moving chicane"...) for example. But when they go to turn 2 in those positions Ocon had nowhere else to go.

    I understand Max's frustration, I don't blame him for pushing Ocon, I've seen much worse

    Regarding other comments that Ocon would have never tried to unlap himself from Hamilton, for example, I agree, but that is F1, he's a Mercedes driver and takes extra care at not getting in the way of any Mercedes.

    I frankly don't see all the fuss about Ocon unless we want to reinstate the crime of crimen maiestatis
     
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  8. olegg

    olegg Race Winner

    On the one hand who has plus-lap should not interfere with their are overtaking.
    On the other hand of the rules do not prohibit the driver return to the circle with the leaders.
    But from the position of the rules of good tone of course Ocon was to take into account
    the struggle Verstappen for the victory in the race.
    And I agree that Ocon was to publicly voice regret about the fact
    that he influenced onto definition of the winner of the race.

    This all does not cancel the share of responsibility Verstappen for the collision.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2018
  9. that isn't written in any rule, Ocon had every right to unlap himself if he had the speed to do so. either Max gave him way or he should have defended properly and sadly he didn't either thing. normally on that turn who is Ocon's position has already gained the overtake (if you keep wide going into turn 2 you lose a lot of time), that's just the way it is. Plus in those circumstances I don't think that letting Ocon through would have cost Max (who was not in a close fight with Hamilton) any time.

    Maybe the real reasons why on the one hand Ocon tried to unlap himself and on the other Max went straight onto him is the fact that since they were kids they have had some issues and Max has always come out worst, maybe he thought that this time he would have the upper hand, but Ocon is fighting for his career and Max couldn't rely on Ocon giving up.

    anyway to me it doesn't look like a very big deal, had Ocon punted Max while Max was lapping him, well in that case it would have been really bad, what happened yesterday IMHO wasn't something particularly bad from a sporting perspective, IMHO if Vettel had been in Max's position Vettel would have been punished (and I could see some ground for that in the rules, as you have to leave enough room for another car), not Ocon, and if any other driver other than Max or Hamilton was involved instead of Max it would have been deemed a racing accident, silly but still a racing accident.
     
  10. Izumi

    Izumi Test Driver

    Max has done the same to Vettel just a few races back. Vettel of course bore brunt of public shaming for his alleged stupidity/clumsiness, while FiA stood silent. Bellicose jingoism of F1 media simply followed trend, questioning Vettel's competence as a driver. Horner then said - Max doesn't yield to anyone. As counterargument, I thought that dear Max rather should follow (defined by Whiting) racing rules.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2018
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  11. The Artist.....

    The Artist..... Champion Elect

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    Esteban Ocon, meet Eddie Irvine:

     
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  12. RasputinLives

    RasputinLives Happy to be me again Contributor

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    I think this is probably the but Ocon is most upset about. Imagine people saying you were like Eddie Irvine? Complete insult.
     
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  13. Bill Boddy

    Bill Boddy Professional layabout Premium Contributor

    Fancy Senna raving on about one driver running into another. Pot, kettle, black.
     
  14. Grizzly

    Grizzly Bear Contributor

    Can i start my own conspiracy theory? ...No objections? Ok then!

    • Frank Willaims dislikes Yos Verstappen;
    • **** [authors opinion deleted]
    • Ocon wants the Williams drive;
    • Frank has said Ocon must '"demonstrate what he can bring to the team" with a power point presentation with "at least 5 more slides and 2 more graphs (with trend lines and everything) than Russell";
    • We all interpret that as Merc money or sponsorship;
    • We are all wrong;
    • Frank wants REVENGE!
    • Clare Williams whispers "Brazil 2001, you know what to do" in to Ocon's ear on Sunday morning as she hands him an old VHS tape with the words 'WATCH BEFORE THE RACE. PP Frank' in pink Sharpie along with an envelope marked 'Not to be opened until after the race'

     
  15. RasputinLives

    RasputinLives Happy to be me again Contributor

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    Ha! I'd forgotten all about Jos being an idiot.....and his F1 career too.
     
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  16. I hadn't, but in fairness his son seems more intelligent than him, apart from that moment IMHO yesterday he drove really well, it was a very intelligent performance from him, if it wasn't for that moment with Ocon he would have been a very deserving winner (in fact I cheered for him to catch and pass Hamilton until the last lap).

    we also have to consider that both Max as well as Ocon are very very young, these things can happen, it's not the end of the world, and what Jos did to Montoya was much much much worse
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2018
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  17. sobriety

    sobriety Pole Sitter

    The conversation between him and Hamilton in the podium room was brilliant, you could almost see Hamilton looking at Verstappen as a younger version of himself.

    I think the speechless moment from Verstappen was a learning moment, and it won't be a mistake we'll see from him again though.
     
  18. Angel

    Angel Points Scorer Supporter

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    I too had forgotten the Jos and Montoya incident, inspired conspiricy theory Grizzly
     
  19. Slyboogy

    Slyboogy World Champion Contributor

    A driver has a right to unlap himself, and Ocon was at least half a car length side by side, Verstappen not being aware turned in on him.

    I really don't see what the issue is about the actual incident leading up this, there's no law about staying behind the leader if you're faster, which when that happened Ocon was.

    Ocon probably should have backed out, but he was entitled to keep his car there as he wasn't breaking any rules, if this wasn't a matter of lapped car making a pass, this would likely go down as a racing incident or Verstappens fault. Both could have done better, Verstappen needs to learn to cool off, throwing a tantrum because he lost pole through his own fault, and then this, was there any need for any altercation? No.
     
  20. RasputinLives

    RasputinLives Happy to be me again Contributor

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    *waves at Slyboogy* Good to see you dude! Nice to see you step out of the shadows. Hope you've been keeping well.

    I agree Ocon was technically correct but I still think he only tried it because it was Max.
     
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  21. Il_leone

    Il_leone Champion Elect

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    Whoever said Force India are backing Ocon just because they have to well they gave permission for Ocon on new tyres to unlap Verstappen being the quicker car at the time so Force India could and should bear the blame

    I will watch it again but apparently Hamilton told Verstappen in the weigh in area after the race that " He had more to lose" (in getting into unnecessary scraps and risks which left Max speechless . A lesson in maturity because Hamilton could see the bigger picture leading fairly comfortably and under no real pressure so why put yourself through it

    ------------------

    A couple of guys with disappointing races Vettel - for once Kimi outraced fair and square and Bottas ... not at the races and seriously a No 2 now
     

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