Who will beat Whom - Cars 3 & 4

[FB]

Re: Who will beat Whom - Cars 3&4

Perhaps out performs was the wrong choice of words SF but Hamilton appears to have an ability to drive around problems with the car (2009 being a good example) which Button appears not to have. Whether this is down to the 2010 Mclaren being designed more around Hamilton's driving style I don't know. Do F1 car designers still do that?

When the car, in Button's mind, is perfect he is a match to Hamilton but that confidence isn't always there; hence why I think Hamilton will beat Button, albeit not by much.

On car design, I remember reading an interview with Jody Scheckter after he joined Tyrrell in 1974 and he felt the '73 Tyrrell (006?) to be almost undriveable as it was built to suit Jackie Stewart's style but I would presume the designing of today's F1 cars is not quite the same as it was in 1973.

 

[Brogan]

Re: Who will beat Whom - Cars 3&4

From what I seem to remember, the 2010 McLaren was changed throughout the course of the season to more match Button's style.

Even so, Hamilton still managed to cope with it rather well.

 

[Speshal]

Re: Who will beat Whom - Cars 3&4

What FB and Bro said basically.

One is a pilot of the car (as our european cousins would say) and one is a driver of the car.

That's basically the point I was trying to make, Jenson can drive beautifully when the car is right for him i.e pilot it and Lewis could drive a knackered ford Sierra into the points IMO

Enough said

 

[Grizzly]

Re: Who will beat Whom - Cars 3&4

I don't do predictions, but Hamilton is the most naturally gifted driver out there IMO, so if its all down to raw speed, there is no prediction to make. Button though is a far more complete driver than many out there, i will agree that when the car is not to his liking his performance drops more than it should, but with the car under him he is not just fast, he is THE fastest out there. Trouble is, this will never happen for more for than about 1/3rd of the year/races, the rest of the year he will have to struggle with balance and do the best he can to keep pace (with the fastest natural driver out there!).

 

[sportsman]

Re: Who will beat Whom - Cars 3&4

With with the increased mimimum weight next year of 640kg and the regulated balance weights 291kg front 342 rear (odd that my abacus says they add up to 633kg unless this balance suits Button he is in for a hard time.

 

[F1Yorkshire]

Re: Who will beat Whom - Cars 3&4

With with the increased mimimum weight next year of 640kg and the regulated balance weights 291kg front 342 rear (odd that my abacus says they add up to 633kg unless this balance suits Button he is in for a hard time.

Would that be a minimum of 291 and 342 at the front and rear which would leave another 7kg to trim the car as needed?

 

[RickD]

Re: Who will beat Whom - Cars 3&4

Whatever way you look at it, regardless of what car he started in, Lewis has always out performed the car by some margin and I don't understand why people are strung up on the fact he didn't "serve an apprenticeship". I think he has proven he was good enough to deserve the seat at Mclaren.

How can you tell he has out-performed his car. Which team-mate did he have when he out-performed the car? I must have missed a race somewhere (or perhaps a full season)..

2007 - He performed on a par with his team-mate and beat him on countback, is this out-performing the car?!?

If you mean 2008 or 9, then it was very difficult to tell whether he did or not as his team-mate wasn't exactly mr quick at nearly any point and even let Lewis through to win a GP in this time..

2010 - I can't think of any race when he was faster in the race than his car was capable of going..

 

[teabagyokel]

Re: Who will beat Whom - Cars 3&4

2007 - He performed on a par with his team-mate and beat him on countback, is this out-performing the car?!?

Yes, when the team-mate is Alonso!

 

[Grizzly]

Re: Who will beat Whom - Cars 3&4

I think Lewis out performed the car on numerous occasions last year, 2010. His qualifying Spain, Turkey, Canada, Europe, Belgium and Abu Dhabi were very impressive, and his race pace in many, maybe most of the races was simply stunning. Bad quali can't be excused, but the performances he put in to climb back up the field in the races, especially in the early part of the year were 2nd to none. Our only true yardstick is his team mate, Jenson, and we've already decided he did a good job and maximised the cars potential, so surely his team mates job to generally out qualify him and finish the season more than a race wins points ahead, can point to only one thing. He out performed the car...

...and, to draw level, even beat on count-back the recognised biggest cry baby most complete driver, in his rookie season! really....

 

[Galahad]

Re: Who will beat Whom - Cars 3&4

I think Jenson might stand a chance if the McLaren's really good, but I don't expect it to be that, so I'll go for Hamilton.

 

[RickD]

Re: Who will beat Whom - Cars 3&4

2007 - He performed on a par with his team-mate and beat him on countback, is this out-performing the car?!?

Yes, when the team-mate is Alonso!

Why exactly?!? I rate Alonso a fairly quick driver, but no where near the fastest on the grid. I fail to see how this means Lewis outperformed the car? If it had been Schumacher in his prime or Senna instead of Alonso, I would agree, but the fact is, it was not, it was a driver that is not capable of the same feats as those two..

I like Lewis, but seriously think some of his fans do wear blinkers at times (especially when team mates come into it). Ther facts from last year are that Jenson managed to beat Lewis in a car built for Lewis in the early part of the year. Then fell off later in the year when the car was changed to try to keep up with the red bull. This says to me that the McLaren had good balance in the early part of the season and then lost that balance later in the year due to the changes, not that Lewis out-performed the car.

G - I kind of agree, but after the beginning of this season, it'd be madness to write Jenson off, but then I guess it was the same last season.

 

[Brogan]

Re: Who will beat Whom - Cars 3&4

I think there were a few fairly fortunate tyre calls involved in the early part of the season.

Without those Jenson wouldn't have had nearly as good results and would have finished behind Lewis in at least one of the races.

 

[snowy]

Re: Who will beat Whom - Cars 3&4

Why exactly?!? I rate Alonso a fairly quick driver, but no where near the fastest on the grid. I fail to see how this means Lewis outperformed the car? If it had been Schumacher in his prime or Senna instead of Alonso, I would agree, but the fact is, it was not, it was a driver that is not capable of the same feats as those two..

Time and time again Fernando has proven himself to be supremely average and lacking in pace. He is as quick as a tortoise with hiccups and won both his Championships against second rate drivers in second rate cars.

Last season he showed just how slow he really is, anyone else would have wiped the floor with that Ferrari and shown those juiced up RBRs a thing or two!

 

[teabagyokel]

Re: Who will beat Whom - Cars 3&4

Why exactly?!? I rate Alonso a fairly quick driver, but no where near the fastest on the grid. I fail to see how this means Lewis outperformed the car? If it had been Schumacher in his prime or Senna instead of Alonso, I would agree, but the fact is, it was not, it was a driver that is not capable of the same feats as those two...

Sorry, but I must take issue with this. Alonso was on top of the world at this point, he'd won the last two World Championships, and in both years he was certainly in a slower car for the second half of the year.

Hamilton was in his first season in F1. Rookie seasons are difficult anyway, you're learning the job as much as you're racing the car. Jenson Button, for example, was taken to the cleaners by Ralf Schumacher!

Hamilton was thrown in at the deep end, if he didn't compete with Alonso he'd have received the same treatment in the opinion columns as Nelsinho Piquet or Romain Grosjean or Felipe Massa when those drivers failed to keep up with him.

Not only did he compete with Alonso, he scored exactly the same points as him. He was one point from the title in his debut season. In actual fact, he was a cert with two races left, and had the Chinese GP been dry, he'd have won it.

Yes, he binned it in the end, but this is a rookie trying to win the title. So, whether he outcompeted the car or not, it is still sufficiently impressive. I think this 'outcompeting the car' business is a bit of a red herring, but I don't think it could be argued that he didn't do a difficult task well in 2007, whatever his and Alonso's failings that year.

 

[RickD]

Re: Who will beat Whom - Cars 3&4

I think there were a few fairly fortunate tyre calls involved in the early part of the season.

Without those Jenson wouldn't have had nearly as good results and would have finished behind Lewis in at least one of the races.

There were also some bad calls Bro. That's part of F1. I like the fact that when Jenson beat Lewis, it was fortunate or lucky, but when its the other way around, it must always be Lewis' skill..

The fact is that when the Red Bulls were by far the fastest car, with the Ferraris a clear 2nd, Jenson beat them and his team mate..

 

[teabagyokel]

Re: Who will beat Whom - Cars 3&4

I think there were a few fairly fortunate tyre calls involved in the early part of the season.

Without those Jenson wouldn't have had nearly as good results and would have finished behind Lewis in at least one of the races.

There were also some bad calls Bro. That's part of F1. I like the fact that when Jenson beat Lewis, it was fortunate or lucky, but when its the other way around, it must always be Lewis' skill..

The fact is that when the Red Bulls were by far the fastest car, with the Ferraris a clear 2nd, Jenson beat them and his team mate..

Not sure Ferrari were a clear 2nd...? Fortunate is the wrong word, excellent is the correct one, but Jenson needed to do something different to beat Lewis. When they went the same way on strategy, set-up etc., Lewis invariably won out.

That is not to criticise Jenson, that is a demonstrable fact.

 

[snowy]

Re: Who will beat Whom - Cars 3&4

The fact is that when the Red Bulls were by far the fastest car, with the Ferraris a clear 2nd, Jenson beat them and his team mate..

Lewis won in Spa in what can only be described as "not even close to being the fastest car". His quali 3 time was 1:45.863 as opposed to Jenson's 1:46.206. His race drive and speed was lightyears ahead of everyone else, this was not a fictional race, it actually happened!

 

[RickD]

Re: Who will beat Whom - Cars 3&4

The fact is that when the Red Bulls were by far the fastest car, with the Ferraris a clear 2nd, Jenson beat them and his team mate..

Lewis won in Spa in what can only be described as "not even close to being the fastest car". His quali 3 time was 1:45.863 as opposed to Jenson's 1:46.206. His race drive and speed was lightyears ahead of everyone else, this was not a fictional race, it actually happened!

I thought it was fictional.. Oh no, that's right, Qualification was a lottery due to the weather.

Jenson was taken out while letting Lewis build a lead. Maybe we just see what happens in a GP in different ways depending on who we support or the coverage..

 

[snowy]

The track was damp, to start off with then dried out at one point in Q3 there was some more rain but it didn't actually have that much effect. These times don't reflect a lottery, and Jenson usually excels in the wet, damp and drying conditions

1 	6 	Mark Webber 	 	1:57.352	1:47.253	1:45.778 	21

2 	2 	Lewis Hamilton  	1:56.706	1:46.211	1:45.863 	18

3 	11 	Robert Kubica 		1:56.041	1:47.320	1:46.100 	19

4 	5 	Sebastian Vettel 	1:58.487	1:47.245	1:46.127 	23

5 	1 	Jenson Button 		1:57.981	1:46.790	1:46.206 	18

6 	7 	Felipe Massa 		1:58.323	1:47.322	1:46.314 	20

7 	9 	Rubens Barrichello 	1:55.757	1:47.797	1:46.602 	19

8 	14 	Adrian Sutil 		1:58.730	1:47.292	1:46.659 	18

9 	10 	Nico Hulkenberg 	1:55.442	1:47.821	1:47.053 	20

10 	8 	Fernando Alonso 	1:57.023	1:47.544	1:47.441 	21

 

[Grizzly]

I am a Jenson fan, i will defend him to the last, I fully believe he can win another championship, I think with good judgement and huge determination he can beat Lewis to the title, at McLaren. I think Lewis is still making too many mistakes and gets too hot headed at times, but Hamilton IS the faster driver. Sorry Jenson.

I see a Senna'esq spark in Hamilton, there is not another current driver i would say that about.