Poll The Worst Team Principal?

[RasputinLives]

thats because in order to get the Renault engine Flavio did another one of his clever deals in offering Red Bull a cheaper engine if they would consider MArk Webber as well and deal with Dieter not Horner.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Flavio was the head of the Renault F1 team not the Renault as a company. I severely doubt the decision on who Renault supply their engines too had anything to do with him as I doubt a company as big and with the reputation of Renault would put that sort of power in the hands of someone who was technically a manager of a department of their company. The teams in F1 who use Renault engines reflect on Renault the car company and brand as a whole and the decision to supply any team would be a big one for the company so the idea that Flavio can offer Red Bull some sort of buy one get one free deal so he can push Mark Webber is a bit silly isn't it?

Nice conspiracy though.

I've heard Bruno Senna is only at Williams because Eric Boullier said unless they took him on that he'd remove all the nuts and bolts from the Reanult engines he obviously decided they should supply Williams. Apparently Frank Williams is so unhappy at having to have Bruno and the deal being done between Coulghan and Boullier that he's hiring a contract killer to take Bruno out.

 

[Bill Boddy]

.... he's hiring a contract killer to take Bruno out.

Nah, he's going to run him over with his wheel chair.

 

[Il_leone]

Correct me if I'm wrong but Flavio was the head of the Renault F1 team not the Renault as a company. I severely doubt the decision on who Renault supply their engines too had anything to do with him as I doubt a company as big and with the reputation of Renault would put that sort of power in the hands of someone who was technically a manager of a department of their company. The teams in F1 who use Renault engines reflect on Renault the car company and brand as a whole and the decision to supply any team would be a big one for the company so the idea that Flavio can offer Red Bull some sort of buy one get one free deal so he can push Mark Webber is a bit silly isn't it?

Nice conspiracy though.

I've heard Bruno Senna is only at Williams because Eric Boullier said unless they took him on that he'd remove all the nuts and bolts from the Reanult engines he obviously decided they should supply Williams. Apparently Frank Williams is so unhappy at having to have Bruno and the deal being done between Coulghan and Boullier that he's hiring a contract killer to take Bruno out.

You never know with Flavio. Then how come Mark Webber can deal with Dieter directly above Horner and Marko to sort out his contract ?

Flavio has been in charge of Renault's engine supply since he took over the mechachrome/ Supertec division that Renault sold the technology to when they pulled out of F1 in 1999

Flavio is such a crafty businessman and considering the team - Red Bull for 2007 went with two experienced drivers which is against what they want to preach - a young , energetic team and wanting young drivers and from their stable to drive the cars.

Mark Webber does not fit the image of anyway and remember Red Bull were a midfield team and looking for choices after his poor spell at Williams. Flavio told him the deal/ the drive would be good for him and Webber admits " I listen to what Flav tellls me " and took the drive.


Flavio's position at Renault then was more like Norbert Haug's at Mercedes . He was in charge of the racing division and he never misses a good deal for himself when he sees one.

If anything why did not Red Bull pick Speed or Liuzzi given that is what they intended to do since they came to F1

The cost of a Ferrari engine was $15m and the cost of a customer Renault engine was $13m and I am sure Flavio would be happy to knock off a few $m for Red Bull to $10m if they took Webber as well

 

[Il_leone]

So Horner is being criticised for not being able to handle a situation that hasn't happened yet, and may not ever happen? Seems a little harsh...

All winning teams have problems with their drivers, as we well know from history. It's easy to criticise Williams, Dennis, Whitmarsh et al for this reason, but usually this is 20:20 hindsight in action. However they handle it, either party (or both) will feel hard-done-by, and their fans in turn. Lovely Peter Sauber never gets criticism for this, but that's because his greater failure lies in not managing to create a winning team.

I criciticse Horner for his handling of

Turkey clash Vettel vs Webber 2010 when he changed his mind as soon as Marko said it was Webber's fault after Horner himself admitted it was Vettel's initially

Silverstone front wing row saying Webber is NO 2 and undermining him

Silverstone ordering Webber not to pass Vettel having said Red Bull is a team of equal opportunities

all the above situations has been favouring Vettel

Its a good thing that Webber has been poor in 2011 otherwise had he been on Vettel's place then it could have seriously drawn a wedge in the team

Peter Sauber you can probably criticise him for sticking with Ferrari on everything so it is alleged . Also possibly siding with Alesi when he clashed with Herbert in 1998 a few times or maybe breaking the spirit of the rules by hiring Kimi Raikkonen who did not do F3 or F3000 into F1 which meant his relationship with Red Bull as sponsors turned a bit sour that season

But the team were stitched up by Broker who promised $10m of sponsors in 1994 and it never materialised. You can also say he should have been more fairer on Karl Wendlinger who struggled after his Monaco crash and was never the same driver

 

[Josh]

You never know with Flavio. Then how come Mark Webber can deal with Dieter directly above Horner and Marko to sort out his contract ?

Flavio has been in charge of Renault's engine supply since he took over the mechachrome/ Supertec division that Renault sold the technology to when they pulled out of F1 in 1999

Flavio is such a crafty businessman and considering the team - Red Bull for 2007 went with two experienced drivers which is against what they want to preach - a young , energetic team and wanting young drivers and from their stable to drive the cars.

Mark Webber does not fit the image of anyway and remember Red Bull were a midfield team and looking for choices after his poor spell at Williams. Flavio told him the deal/ the drive would be good for him and Webber admits " I listen to what Flav tellls me " and took the drive.


Flavio's position at Renault then was more like Norbert Haug's at Mercedes . He was in charge of the racing division and he never misses a good deal for himself when he sees one.

If anything why did not Red Bull pick Speed or Liuzzi given that is what they intended to do since they came to F1

The cost of a Ferrari engine was $15m and the cost of a customer Renault engine was $13m and I am sure Flavio would be happy to knock off a few $m for Red Bull to $10m if they took Webber as well

Flavio Briatore led Mecachrome from 1998 to 2000. He hasn't been a part of it for 11 years. Supertec doesn't exist anymore.

Renault's F1 engines are now distributed by Renault Sport F1, and their chairman is, since the first day of January this year, Jean-Michel Jalinier. Before that it was Bernard Rey. who was also president at Renault F1 in 2007. They're both not Flavio.

 

[Viscount]

I criciticse Horner for his handling of

Turkey clash Vettel vs Webber 2010 when he changed his mind as soon as Marko said it was Webber's fault after Horner himself admitted it was Vettel's initially

I don't remember seeing or reading any interviews where Horner blamed either driver for the incident. Also, just had a quick look at the post race interview and a later interview with BBC where he still doesn't blame either driver.

Silverstone front wing row saying Webber is NO 2 and undermining him

Red Bull only had one new front wing left, Vettel was ahead of Webber at the time in the championship and also turned out to be the eventual Driver's Champion, so surely that was the correct decision made by Horner as to who to give the wing to? It was Webber who made the number 2 comment.

Silverstone ordering Webber not to pass Vettel having said Red Bull is a team of equal opportunities

Considering how things ended in Turkey 2010 when they were last allowed to race each other, from the team's persepective it was the right decision to avoid another incident.

all the above situations has been favouring Vettel

Its a good thing that Webber has been poor in 2011 otherwise had he been on Vettel's place then it could have seriously drawn a wedge in the team

Whether or not Vettel is favoured at Red Bull, the simple fact is he has outperformed Webber in all 3 seasons that they've raced together.

 

[Slyboogy]

Nice post by Viscount.

Also like to add, the front wing situation shouldn't have even occurred as Webber preferred old one (as was stated) and went back to it.

 

[RasputinLives]

You never know with Flavio. Then how come Mark Webber can deal with Dieter directly above Horner and Marko to sort out his contract ?

Flavio has been in charge of Renault's engine supply since he took over the mechachrome/ Supertec division that Renault sold the technology to when they pulled out of F1 in 1999

Flavio is such a crafty businessman and considering the team - Red Bull for 2007 went with two experienced drivers which is against what they want to preach - a young , energetic team and wanting young drivers and from their stable to drive the cars.

Mark Webber does not fit the image of anyway and remember Red Bull were a midfield team and looking for choices after his poor spell at Williams. Flavio told him the deal/ the drive would be good for him and Webber admits " I listen to what Flav tellls me " and took the drive.


Flavio's position at Renault then was more like Norbert Haug's at Mercedes . He was in charge of the racing division and he never misses a good deal for himself when he sees one.

If anything why did not Red Bull pick Speed or Liuzzi given that is what they intended to do since they came to F1

The cost of a Ferrari engine was $15m and the cost of a customer Renault engine was $13m and I am sure Flavio would be happy to knock off a few $m for Red Bull to $10m if they took Webber as well

You're not convincing me I'm afraid because its all what/when and where upons. Have you ever considered that part of the reason that Red Bull might have gone for Mark Webber is being as they work at the same factory and have many of the same crew as Jaguar they knew exactly how to work with him?

I mean you can see the evil hand of Flav behind it all if you want and I'm sure Webber does do what Flav tells him too he's his manager - theres nothing underhand about that. As for guess work on the engine deal as its been shown he has nothing to do with who Renault supply engines too so it is just that. Guess work.

Please also explain how you know that Webber deals directly with Dieter for his contract without the involvment of Marko - and if you can do that please prove to me that Vettel doesn't do the same thing. Because if you're can't your just talking rammel really.

Also do I really need to explain to you why Red Bull didn't take on Scott Speed or Antonio Liuzzi for 2007? Really?

 

[Il_leone]

I don't remember seeing or reading any interviews where Horner blamed either driver for the incident. Also, just had a quick look at the post race interview and a later interview with BBC where he still doesn't blame either driver.

Turkey 2010 - after the race he put the blame on Vettel then Helmut Marko says it was Webber's fault ... a few days afterwards Horner is quoted as saying "Maybe it was Mark's fault for not giving enough space"



Red Bull only had one new front wing left, Vettel was ahead of Webber at the time in the championship and also turned out to be the eventual Driver's Champion, so surely that was the correct decision made by Horner as to who to give the wing to? It was Webber who made the number 2 comment.


Its hard luck if Vettel's wing break but the fact is they took it off Webber without even consulting him...and funnily Webber lead not long afterwards and was the lead Red Bull driver until the last race .

So you'd think Red Bull would do it to say Lewis Hamilton if him and Vettel were to be teammates

If it was any other driver like Alonso or Hamilton they would make the same comment over the radio


Considering how things ended in Turkey 2010 when they were last allowed to race each other, from the team's persepective it was the right decision to avoid another incident.


Whether or not Vettel is favoured at Red Bull, the simple fact is he has outperformed Webber in all 3 seasons that they've raced together.

You are forgetting Horner keeps saying his team is one of equal opportunities but his actions have proven otherwise

Horner does not know how to handle potential volatile situations between his drivers

 

[Il_leone]

Nice post by Viscount.

Also like to add, the front wing situation shouldn't have even occurred as Webber preferred old one (as was stated) and went back to it.

Imagine you suddenly think you can beat your teammate okay through misfortune but that is F1 and then the team decide can we take parts of your car and put it on his to go faster again without even asking him

Horner said it was a championship decision and it certainly did not look like it when Vettel made a mess of his start and tried to squeeze Webber

 

[Viscount]

You are forgetting Horner keeps saying his team is one of equal opportunities but his actions have proven otherwise

Horner does not know how to handle potential volatile situations between his drivers

His actions may appear to favour one driver, but they've won both the driver's and constructors championships these past 2 seasons so I'd say those actions were correct. Webber had the chance to win the title in 2010 but he crashed out in Korea and lost out to Ferrari in Abu Dhabi, he lost the championship not Red Bull favouring Vettel. Webber said himself, if Red Bull didn't give him equal status in the team he would not race for them.

As for Horner not knowing how to handle potential volatile situations between his drivers, as I said previously isn't stopping them from racing each other at Silverstone (because the last time they did they crashed) handling a potentially volatile situation?

 

[Il_leone]

His actions may appear to favour one driver, but they've won both the driver's and constructors championships these past 2 seasons so I'd say those actions were correct. Webber had the chance to win the title in 2010 but he crashed out in Korea and lost out to Ferrari in Abu Dhabi, he lost the championship not Red Bull favouring Vettel. Webber said himself, if Red Bull didn't give him equal status in the team he would not race for them.

As for Horner not knowing how to handle potential volatile situations between his drivers, as I said previously isn't stopping them from racing each other at Silverstone (because the last time they did they crashed) handling a potentially volatile situation?

Blaming one driver for the crash in Turkey - Vettel and then changing your mind to the other a few weeks later after someone higher up decides to have his say and back Vettel shows his indecision and poor management.

If he just said I will sit down with both guys and handle it internally that would have been the moral ground for a team boss

 

[Slyboogy]

Imagine you suddenly think you can beat your teammate okay through misfortune but that is F1 and then the team decide can we take parts of your car and put it on his to go faster again without even asking him

Horner said it was a championship decision and it certainly did not look like it when Vettel made a mess of his start and tried to squeeze Webber

He didn't want it and reverted to he old one, don't see what the fuss is about...

 

[Il_leone]

You're not convincing me I'm afraid because its all what/when and where upons. Have you ever considered that part of the reason that Red Bull might have gone for Mark Webber is being as they work at the same factory and have many of the same crew as Jaguar they knew exactly how to work with him?

I mean you can see the evil hand of Flav behind it all if you want and I'm sure Webber does do what Flav tells him too he's his manager - theres nothing underhand about that. As for guess work on the engine deal as its been shown he has nothing to do with who Renault supply engines too so it is just that. Guess work.

Please also explain how you know that Webber deals directly with Dieter for his contract without the involvment of Marko - and if you can do that please prove to me that Vettel doesn't do the same thing. Because if you're can't your just talking rammel really.

Also do I really need to explain to you why Red Bull didn't take on Scott Speed or Antonio Liuzzi for 2007? Really?

I found it at last that Dietrich deals with Mark Webber directly - much to the chagrin of Marko
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2011/09/behind-the-button-contract-story/

Remember Marko said Webber will retire at the end of 2012 and rumours fly around he was already looking to have someone ready

Although since then Webber has come out saying he is happy to race longer...

The Red Bull seat is going to be wanted by every driver so pressure on Webber

 

[Il_leone]

He didn't want it and reverted to he old one, don't see what the fuss is about...

Imagine then your teammate is having a bit of bad luck for once and you want to beat him and then the team decide to take your parts and bolt it onto his car without asking you - I can;t imagine Alonso , Hamilton or any ambitious driver would be happy with that

Had they gone up to Webber and said do you need the parts because they needed to replace Vettel's then it may have turned out different..

they did not handle it well or i should say Horner did not . Eddie Jordan had a field day that weekend for undermining Mark in such a way

 

[Il_leone]

You're not convincing me I'm afraid because its all what/when and where upons. Have you ever considered that part of the reason that Red Bull might have gone for Mark Webber is being as they work at the same factory and have many of the same crew as Jaguar they knew exactly how to work with him?

I mean you can see the evil hand of Flav behind it all if you want and I'm sure Webber does do what Flav tells him too he's his manager - theres nothing underhand about that. As for guess work on the engine deal as its been shown he has nothing to do with who Renault supply engines too so it is just that. Guess work.

Please also explain how you know that Webber deals directly with Dieter for his contract without the involvment of Marko - and if you can do that please prove to me that Vettel doesn't do the same thing. Because if you're can't your just talking rammel really.

Also do I really need to explain to you why Red Bull didn't take on Scott Speed or Antonio Liuzzi for 2007? Really?

Red Bull's options for 2007

Klein - sacked failed to impress because he was unable to beat "Uncle" David and thinks being Austrian and one of the development drivers he deserves a bit more attention and treatment

Doornbos - stood for Klein but failed to take opportunity

Liuzzi - originally planned to be in the team for 2005 but was given a shared seat with Klein which was unfair because Horner did not want two rookies

Speed - for his US marketing unfortunately he had an overinflated ego and failed to impress and justify his promotion

Montoya - potential because his US popularity but vetoed by DC as a potential teammate allegedly


--------------

Webber ignored Flav's advice to join Renault for 2005 when he opted for Williams and had two frustrating seasons and he promised he will listen to Flav next time

Flav never misses an opportunity to make a deal for himself through Renault and his own driver management

Like I said Webber does not fit the Red Bull marketing image or plan

 

[Il_leone]

Please also explain how you know that Webber deals directly with Dieter for his contract without the involvment of Marko - and if you can do that please prove to me that Vettel doesn't do the same thing. Because if you're can't your just talking rammel really.

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2011/09/behind-the-button-contract-story/


Right at the bottom of the article.

With Vettel he would go through Horner and Marko . I gather with Webber it is straight to Mateschitz which annoys Helmut

 

[Slyboogy]

Il_leone, I think you should chill out!

 

[RasputinLives]

ahhh James Allen! must be true then

I agree with Sly

 

[KekeTheKing]

I know it wasn't all his fault, but when I watch races from the late 80's - early 90's, I can't help but laugh at the ineptitude of Cesare Fiorio and the Ferrari boys.