EDIT: Aha! and i clicked the wrong one........Doh! +1 to No penaly then.
silly boy!
I've edited your votes from No to Yes.
Poll Should Vettel have been penalised for his start in Japan?
- Thread starter jez101
- Start date
Tartsan
Rookie
Alonso pushed Vettel off the track in Monza this year and Alonso did not get penalised. It was not over aggressive manouver from Vettel this time so I think it was fair. The driver in front can move once to defend... F1 should pinnacle of motorsport, but nowadays every manouver that drivers do will be eventually investigated and penalised. Come on give me a break. This eventually loses fans. I want just some racing wheel to wheel. There are always some one who is whining and complaining.
I think closing the door is perfectly acceptable. It's slamming the door in someone's face I don't think it right.
If your front wheels are level with the rears of the guy in front, you are stuck if the door closes. You might not even be able to back out if your wheels are interlocked.
A question for you Tartsan, if this was ok, where is the limit, or is it a free for all in your view?
Forget whether Vettel should have been punished when others haven't been. After others have gotten away with similar moves this year, maybe Seb would have been hard done by, but the op is about the situation in general.
Vettel makes quite a habit of this when threatened. He should have been punished.
If we take Hamilton's bizarre penalty at Fuji in 2008 as a precedent, then there is clearly no doubt!
If we take Hamilton's bizarre penalty at Fuji in 2008 as a precedent, then there is clearly no doubt!
Liuzzi in Monza was one, certainly. Not too many though (and certainly none as ridiculous!)
Tartsan
Rookie
No off course not free for all. Generally spoken, there can't be double standards, if in one race its allowed and in another it isn't. Maybe Vettel thought he left the gap. Hamilton went to defend also from the start aggressively and then went back to racing line. These starts are hard to judge if they are appropriate or not because there are so many manouvers. There are always questions if the driver in front saw the other driver behind. In Monza Schuey was in front and was on the racing line when Hamilton went for the tiny gap. I did not think that was worth penalising and i don't this was either.
Here is how I see it
Closing the door - no problem at all.
Hard-Nosed Racing - risky because you could get a puncture, but safe enough because the other guy can "escape".
Crossed the Line - you need to draw the line somewhere, so here it is in my view
Dangerous Driving
These would apply outside normal braking zones or turn in points, but would apply to starts also.
Closing the door - no problem at all.
Hard-Nosed Racing - risky because you could get a puncture, but safe enough because the other guy can "escape".
Crossed the Line - you need to draw the line somewhere, so here it is in my view
Dangerous Driving
These would apply outside normal braking zones or turn in points, but would apply to starts also.
Fair enough. You are right that Monza was different, in my view this was because there was a corner involved.
I voted "No" - because there was no collision in this instance.
If a startline chop results in a collision for the "chopee" that results in damage/retirement - then a drive-through is warranted. If the "chopper" gets a puncture (like Vettel at Silverstone 2010) then that's just tough, and punishment enough. Otherwise it's just racing - which is what we all watch for, isn't it?
(Besides - it was most satisfying to see JB deny Vettel the profit for Sunday's startline move!
)
If a startline chop results in a collision for the "chopee" that results in damage/retirement - then a drive-through is warranted. If the "chopper" gets a puncture (like Vettel at Silverstone 2010) then that's just tough, and punishment enough. Otherwise it's just racing - which is what we all watch for, isn't it?
(Besides - it was most satisfying to see JB deny Vettel the profit for Sunday's startline move!
)
Vettel has a history of this type of driving:
http://cliptheapex.com/threads/sebastian-vettel-likes-to-turn-right.1641/
Sadly Keke's brilliant video has disappeared - perhaps he could recreate it for us?
http://cliptheapex.com/threads/sebastian-vettel-likes-to-turn-right.1641/
Sadly Keke's brilliant video has disappeared - perhaps he could recreate it for us?
Andyoak
Champion Elect
Yes, for exactly the same reasons I gave when discussing similar moves on overtaking (and illustrated so well by jez101).
Racing should be on the circuit... not the grass / run-off or pitwall. The tracks are wide enough to overtake on (even Monaco) and that is where pasiing should occur.
Vettel is the most blatant recent advocate of these moves and I remember endless debates about this last year too. The feeling back then seemed to be that this needed addressing and I think this is still the case.
Charlie Whiting and the stewards really should get a grip on this and have a season of consistant punishments for these infringements. If they have to prioritise then start at the front and work your way back; odds on if you go the other way the drivethrough penalties (the obvious punishment) will have little impact on a car with a clear track ahead of him.
Racing should be on the circuit... not the grass / run-off or pitwall. The tracks are wide enough to overtake on (even Monaco) and that is where pasiing should occur.
Vettel is the most blatant recent advocate of these moves and I remember endless debates about this last year too. The feeling back then seemed to be that this needed addressing and I think this is still the case.
Charlie Whiting and the stewards really should get a grip on this and have a season of consistant punishments for these infringements. If they have to prioritise then start at the front and work your way back; odds on if you go the other way the drivethrough penalties (the obvious punishment) will have little impact on a car with a clear track ahead of him.
Crowding of the car happens in nearly every race, as does "forcing driver off the track" neither very much get penalised, unless the consequences are severe, to me it's just racing. Feel that Button made a bit too much of it, could what Button was doing behind the safety car count as "crowding"? we saw him do it China last year causing problems, nearly happened for this race.
Canada 2011 between Button and Hamilton this year, deemed by almost everyone hear as a "racing incident" but that is also "crowding".
Canada 2011 between Button and Hamilton this year, deemed by almost everyone hear as a "racing incident" but that is also "crowding".
You are certainly right that under my definition what happened in Canada was dangerous by JB. That's why i am keen on some kind of audible warning to let drivers know when an opponent has crossed the line and is alongside.
I just think something has to be done to go back a few steps on what is acceptable for safety and sporting reasons. I think that the authorities and the car designers are the ones who should be solving this though. Drivers will always try and push the limits. That is what they are there for.
No limits?
Tacitus
Pole Sitter
NO LIMITS AT THE START!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ITS IN THEIR SELF INTREST NOT TO CRASH!!!!!!!
Finally voted on this and it was 'no' - basically fed up with everyone pussy-footing around, being polite, being PC, being mindful of health and safety, etc. blah, blah - it's racing for Christ's sake. Every one of those guys wants to win and that's what I would actually like to see - a battle, a race - no death of course, this isn't quite an amphitheatre - is that so bloody wrong in this ridiculous world
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