Why have you decided that Hamilton is number 1 and Button number 2?
I'm sure jez will say because HAM #3 and BUT #4 in 2011. Now lets have an end to THAT discussion!
Overtaking Style and Tyres
- Thread starter Mezzer
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I'm sure jez will say because HAM #3 and BUT #4 in 2011. Now lets have an end to THAT discussion!
I still can't help thinking this is a thread about Lewis and Jenson bashing thinly veiled behind the more interesting discussion about what are the main causes of tyre ware based on my comment suggesting that overtaking is not the main cause of tyre degradation.
I believe the main causes of tyre ware in no particular are;
Car set up
Driving style
Track surface types
Heavy braking but only if the wheels lock causing flat spots
Tyre Compound
Hitting curbs
Wheel spin
Fuel levels
Green vs rubbered in track
Temperature
And probably other which I can't think of at the moment, the question is which element is the most important factor?
But if members want to talk about two particular drivers then thats fine I'll go and watch a different thread.
I believe the main causes of tyre ware in no particular are;
Car set up
Driving style
Track surface types
Heavy braking but only if the wheels lock causing flat spots
Tyre Compound
Hitting curbs
Wheel spin
Fuel levels
Green vs rubbered in track
Temperature
And probably other which I can't think of at the moment, the question is which element is the most important factor?
But if members want to talk about two particular drivers then thats fine I'll go and watch a different thread.
Why have you decided that Hamilton is number 1 and Button number 2?
Hamilton was car number 3, Button car number 4...
Not sure I'm with you? A prime on Jenson's car is the same as a prime on Lewis'.
I don't think it is as simple as that! Harder tyres are prone to grip less and wheel spin more, overheating them without going anywhere. That's why they use the red tyres on the street circuits because the harder ones would be dead quicker from more wheelspin.
The biggest factor is track surface / layout (hard to separate as we don't know the exact forces and grip / slip at each corner...), but there are lots of examples last year where the same tyre does two different things from one week to the next (yellows in Korea vs in Japan).
Car setup / design is also a big factor - witness the deg in Turkey or Barcelona last year and how deg was reduced significantly after those races. There was not so much of a competitive advantage though because teams all solved these problems at the same time.
From what I can tell, the biggest factor in tyre degradation that the driver can control is wheelspin. This obviously affects the rears much more, but sliding the car would also harm the fronts.
I looked hard for a correlation with temperature and humidily, but there were too many other variables: there were hot races with low deg and hot races with high deg on the same tyre (and vice versa). Other factors were more significant. Green vs rubbered in track was another that was hard to split from the opposing force of the fuel weight decreasing
Also following another car can (it is said) damage tyres possibly due to having less downforce ergo less grip causing the car to slide more..
Cookinflatsix
Banned
Ah the reference to relative durability was between last years tyres (red, yellow etc) and this years tyres
Not between the sorts and hards
Obviously the hards are not necessarily better for overtaking than the softs due to less grip
I still believe that drivers who like to overtake as soon as possible to chase a win will prefer tyres that last longer, wear more evenly and don't have a cliff prospect
And a driver who overtakes several times will wear his tyres quicker than a driver who doesn't overtake
That ain't rocket science to me
However if a chap doesn't overtake and waits for a chance to pass without stress then as long as it works like Alonso sometimes makes it then he might prefer tyres that are less durable
Exactly which drivers in F1 "don't overtake" as far as I know they all do which means tyre degradation from overtaking alone (if any) is uniform throughout the field.
I would say "it ain't rocket science" but I find that a derogatory turn of phrase meant as an insult to somebody else's opinion so I wont.
I would say "it ain't rocket science" but I find that a derogatory turn of phrase meant as an insult to somebody else's opinion so I wont.
I think you are spot on when you put it like that! Maybe not rocket science but you have explained some important aspects of this, and not everyone would otherwise see
Cookinflatsix
Banned
A driver that overtakes 10 times in a stint will destroy his tyres quicker than one who doesn't overtake in the same stint
And I am yet to see a driver hitting his tyres during a race, not even with an extra long hammer
Okay cook to dispute your theory that a driver who overtakes sooner rather than later destroys his tyres more.
I'm going to put it to you, that a driver who doesn't overtake immediately and so follows a car for lap after lap, is in the dirty air of the car in front and it is a given that following a car destroys tyres then the guy that overtook is in fact in a better place tyre wise.
I think you will find a graphic example of this if you look back at the Monza race 2011 (I'm not mentioning any team mates here)
I'm going to put it to you, that a driver who doesn't overtake immediately and so follows a car for lap after lap, is in the dirty air of the car in front and it is a given that following a car destroys tyres then the guy that overtook is in fact in a better place tyre wise.
I think you will find a graphic example of this if you look back at the Monza race 2011 (I'm not mentioning any team mates here)
Cookinflatsix
Banned
Depends how far behind the leading driver one is, if you are a couple of seconds behind you have no dirty air to contend with
If your approach is to not overtake and wait till the guy ahead falls off, then you don't want to be positioned directly behind his gearbox anyway do you?
Overtaking destroys tyres faster than cruising and collecting therefore a driver who prefers to attempt overtaking as opposed to waiting for the guy ahead to drop off, pit, make a mistake or destroy his tyres trying it on with the guy in front of him will not be distressed by reports that this years tyres are less fragile than last years
IMHO
I don't think by more durable they mean they wont wear out as quick or get damaged by racing as much I think they mean they will just not drop off so suddenly as last years giving a slightly (not much) longer cross over window thats all.
And if we are going to reference this between the two Mclaren drivers (after all they drive the same car and they do have different driving styles) I don't think you'll find there was a hell of a lot difference in their pit-stop strategies over the season and no difference in their tyre usage, also Button actually made more overtakes than Lewis, and that doesn't mean just in the DRS zone
And if we are going to reference this between the two Mclaren drivers (after all they drive the same car and they do have different driving styles) I don't think you'll find there was a hell of a lot difference in their pit-stop strategies over the season and no difference in their tyre usage, also Button actually made more overtakes than Lewis, and that doesn't mean just in the DRS zone
Cookinflatsix
Banned
The McLaren boys are no longer a good example of the Senna/Prost style dialectic
Buttons vast experience coupled with his ability mean that he is not forced to always drive conservatively, when he wants to go for it he can well, as he is a top driver, and he has learnt from Lewis in ways, at the same time Lewis has proven that whilst being fast and aggressive is the number one route overall, when required he can be conservative etc.
Lewis has given superb demonstrations of tyre management and measured performance and Jenson has given ones of aggressive route one predator, its what they are more comfortable with that they will do more and defines their 'style'
Lewis likes the route one approach, the fact that the tyres are said to be more durable (less fragile and more predictable and are useful longer) will make non formulaic Drs type overtaking happen more as drivers said to be aggressive will .....be aggressive)
Surely even those who like to see a driver run a whole race skilfully lapping without any deviation from a consistent smooth line to preserve a set of tyres would like to see drivers willing to take risks, be daring be aggressive, trash tyres etc sometimes
Buttons vast experience coupled with his ability mean that he is not forced to always drive conservatively, when he wants to go for it he can well, as he is a top driver, and he has learnt from Lewis in ways, at the same time Lewis has proven that whilst being fast and aggressive is the number one route overall, when required he can be conservative etc.
Lewis has given superb demonstrations of tyre management and measured performance and Jenson has given ones of aggressive route one predator, its what they are more comfortable with that they will do more and defines their 'style'
Lewis likes the route one approach, the fact that the tyres are said to be more durable (less fragile and more predictable and are useful longer) will make non formulaic Drs type overtaking happen more as drivers said to be aggressive will .....be aggressive)
Surely even those who like to see a driver run a whole race skilfully lapping without any deviation from a consistent smooth line to preserve a set of tyres would like to see drivers willing to take risks, be daring be aggressive, trash tyres etc sometimes
Agreed I think they have learnt a lot from each other and are no longer a bone of contention between fans of either, well I hope that to be the case anyway.
I do like to see aggressive driving as long as it is tempered with a measure of calculated risk, surely from any fans point of view he/she does not like seeing their favoured driver end up in the pits with a puncture or nose cone damage, or even worse out of the race?
Back on subject a driver can and should do the best he can to conserve his tyres due to the rules as they stand at the present time, it's not ideal I know but that's what they have to work with.
I'm looking forward to the start of the season to see what happens on this subject as I hope you are too.
PS
I hate DRS
I do like to see aggressive driving as long as it is tempered with a measure of calculated risk, surely from any fans point of view he/she does not like seeing their favoured driver end up in the pits with a puncture or nose cone damage, or even worse out of the race?
Back on subject a driver can and should do the best he can to conserve his tyres due to the rules as they stand at the present time, it's not ideal I know but that's what they have to work with.
I'm looking forward to the start of the season to see what happens on this subject as I hope you are too.
PS
I hate DRS
Cookinflatsix
Banned
Oh dear, we have turned this into another thread about Lewis
Let's hope no one complains about bring forced to read a circular argument about Lewis again
Let's hope no one complains about bring forced to read a circular argument about Lewis again
God another circular argument about Lewis!
(joke)
(joke)
Well, we do have one other team to look at:
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