Not if you like Hamilton's aggressive overtaking style ...
Overtaking Style and Tyres
- Thread starter Mezzer
- Start date
Overtaking doesn't destroy tyres hitting them too hard to soon does...
Cookinflatsix
Banned
Overtaking tends to require using your tyres hard sooner rather than later
afterall if it wasn't needed soon one wouldnt need to overtake at all,
its harder to overtake on worn tyres
for an aggressive charger, tyres that are more durable mean one can overtake earlier (sooner) with less worry about later
That only works if you are on better rubber than the person you are overtaking so it follows to be on better rubber you need to preserve them in the warm up phase.
I'm assuming your references are to try and convince me that lewis is the best overtakeer in F1 at the present time which is the kind of spurious argument I will not get involved with as there is no evidence to support such a disceptation.
Cookinflatsix
Banned
more rather than less durable tyres suit aggressive drivers who prefer to over take sooner than later
it aint rocket science
it aint rocket science
Personally, I think driving to the limitations of the tyres in the most effective way is a skill.
And I am sorry, but overtaking skill is not dependant on the durability of the tyres, the overall race strategy may improve for drivers who traditionally take a lot from their tyres, but this is not the same as drivers who overtake a lot, but it ain't rocket science.
Anyway, sorry to indulge in the diversion.
To get the thread away from the familiar subject, my understanding is that the main difference this year is how close the compounds are to each other, one of the discussions on the forum was around the crossover points of the alternative compounds, and it seems like Pirelli may have done some work to achieve this.
To be fair to the teams, as the understanding of the tyres improved last year, the issues that we saw at the start of the year were significantly reduced, so little in the way of the cliff. I am not sure if the tyre gurus on here could say if tyre deg improved on like compounds through the year?
And I am sorry, but overtaking skill is not dependant on the durability of the tyres, the overall race strategy may improve for drivers who traditionally take a lot from their tyres, but this is not the same as drivers who overtake a lot, but it ain't rocket science.
Anyway, sorry to indulge in the diversion.
To get the thread away from the familiar subject, my understanding is that the main difference this year is how close the compounds are to each other, one of the discussions on the forum was around the crossover points of the alternative compounds, and it seems like Pirelli may have done some work to achieve this.
To be fair to the teams, as the understanding of the tyres improved last year, the issues that we saw at the start of the year were significantly reduced, so little in the way of the cliff. I am not sure if the tyre gurus on here could say if tyre deg improved on like compounds through the year?
Cookinflatsix
Banned
ergo, the more aggressive driver who likes to overtake is a little better off, with the new tyres?
and if you like these types of drivers, you will not be too distressed by the reports of the increased durabilty
Personally I think this will improve the racing element whilst the closeness of the compounds will allow more divergence on strategy between the teams
Well this is a first - me being in complete agreement with Cook. The majority of proper overtakes (I'm not talking about this DRS, I've got new tyres on and I'm coming through malarkee) comes from being on the brakes later than your opponent. If you stand on the brakes later than you should then obviously its going to be much harder on the tyres and therefore destroy them quicker - thats the price you pay for overtaking (or should pay).
As for this "hitting them too hard too early" malarkie - this is somewhat of a myth - unless you mean by hitting them hard wheelspinning and sliding off the track going fast on a set of F1 cars straight away will not destroy them - yes they take sometime to warm up and it means you can't go as quick on your first lap out(although now they're heated thats not as bad) due to not having grip but going fast on a set of tyres does not destroy them - thats what they are designed to do be pushed to the max. What has created this myth of late is that drivers have discovered (and I think we may have Alonso success in 05 to thank for this) that the pacing yourself method so that others can fall away or have to pit early has become far more benificial than it used to be - mainly due to the difficulty in overtaking as it gives you track position. DRS was brought in last year for that exact reason but due to the tyres falling away so quick and the fact that DRS didn't work on some tracks it didn't do it completely(some tracks such as China it did). If the tyres are more durable this year it will take away this 'pace yourself' mentality and bring it back to being on the right tyre at the right time and pushing it to the max - which lets face it is what we all want to see in F1 really.
I just hope they've sorted the aero stuff out so we can see overtakes(Not DRS aided) again - I've been filling my F1 void by watching my boxset of the 70's seasons and wouold love to see a return to racing like that.
Cookinflatsix
Banned
You have actually said the same thing before at least once
I think you have answered the 'does overtaking wear out tyres?' question conclusively
No, the more aggressive driver MAY be better off, although, this may not be the case. Also, lets not confuse aggressive with being a good overtaker, this is not the Lewis Hamilton thread.
I do not disagree with this, but the second statement is more likely to be true than the first. I think that the racing is likely to be improved by the closeness of the compound increasing, rather than the durability, and this is irrespective of which driver you support.
Cookinflatsix
Banned
Why does everyone keep wanting to bring Lewis Hamilton into this? I have not mentioned Hamilton once, neither has Rasputin, yet we have both addressed exactly the same post
Its simple, more durable tyres are a boon for drivers (any) that like to overtake early (a.k.a aggressive attitude)
Instead of any expansion on this, brand new issues are introduced with Lewis the specific topic
e.g.
Its simple, more durable tyres are a boon for drivers (any) that like to overtake early (a.k.a aggressive attitude)
Instead of any expansion on this, brand new issues are introduced with Lewis the specific topic
e.g.
CFS, you do make me chuckle!!
For fear of turning this into a circular argument the tyre situation will be a boon for many, not just those who are deemed to be the more aggressive.
For example, Seb Vettel would have been able to pull more of a lead without worrying about tyre deg, Alonso and Massa may not have needed to worry about the hard tyres if the soft tyres lasted longer, and meant that an extra pit stop was not needed. Strategists will also find things easier, as there is a larger window of opportunity, especially if the penalty of being on the harder tyre is decreased.
so in short, my personal opinion (and it is just that) is that there will be many differences with the changes to the tyres, some of which will be as we have discussed, and some which will be novel, and possibly unexpected.
And CFS, as an aside, if you truly were not referring to Lewis if only internally, then I apologise for being presumptuous. Your allegiances and your posting history being what they are however, I am sure you could see how this travesty could be arrived at!!
For fear of turning this into a circular argument the tyre situation will be a boon for many, not just those who are deemed to be the more aggressive.
For example, Seb Vettel would have been able to pull more of a lead without worrying about tyre deg, Alonso and Massa may not have needed to worry about the hard tyres if the soft tyres lasted longer, and meant that an extra pit stop was not needed. Strategists will also find things easier, as there is a larger window of opportunity, especially if the penalty of being on the harder tyre is decreased.
so in short, my personal opinion (and it is just that) is that there will be many differences with the changes to the tyres, some of which will be as we have discussed, and some which will be novel, and possibly unexpected.
And CFS, as an aside, if you truly were not referring to Lewis if only internally, then I apologise for being presumptuous. Your allegiances and your posting history being what they are however, I am sure you could see how this travesty could be arrived at!!
I don't know and I don't think the teams do either what the tyres are going to do in race conditions, we don't even know if the tyres they are using now are going to be anything like the one's that will be available at the start of the season, also none of us know how individual drivers will cope with the new rubber.
I still maintain that Mark Webber's poor season was caused by his inability to manage his tyres especially the rears and Lewis's woes had nothing whatsoever to do with the tyres...
I still maintain that Mark Webber's poor season was caused by his inability to manage his tyres especially the rears and Lewis's woes had nothing whatsoever to do with the tyres...
You're half right. Hamilton was so often in the vicinity of Massa last year because his tyre management paled in comparison to others, particularly his team-mate's. I think you can see in Hamilton's performances in Malaysia and Japan (for example) at least the knock on effects of sub-optimal tyre analysis.
Fortunately or unfortunately depending on your point of view tyre management has become an integral part of todays F1, probably to counter act the no refueling rule, and will remain so for the next season al least.
Ones thing for sure it is going to be interesting and I am looking forward to finding out, but then again I'm looking forward to the start of the season full stop...
And yes you are probably right Lewis ended up in Massa's company more times than was necessary, considering his ability and the car, so it had to be more than just bad luck .
Right, I mailed our spreadsheet demons (jez101, sushifiesta and tooncheese) about this. Here is the graph comparing Hamilton and Button, with an upward curve denoting Button was kinder:
One race I brought up was Japan. Jenson was less kind on the primes, but nearly a second faster in the first place. So, jez' conclusion was that we were both right
Thanks for that, jez!
One race I brought up was Japan. Jenson was less kind on the primes, but nearly a second faster in the first place. So, jez' conclusion was that we were both right
Thanks for that, jez!
Since we don't know if the added durability comes about thru harder compounds and therefore reduced grip, I don't see how any of us can know (although we can guess/hope) how overtaking will be affected. I do think that the lessening in the difference between the two tyre compounds can only improve the racing by keeping the cars' perfomance more linear.
Why have you decided that Hamilton is number 1 and Button number 2?
Ooo I love a good bit of thread controversy!
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