Current McLaren

Arguably one of the big teams in Formula One but lately they don't seem to be able to get the basics right.
Some of their strategy and decisions in the last few years has left more than a few observers scratching their heads.

Just a few for starters:

• Leaving Kimi out on a badly flat-spotted tyre, resulting in it exploding on the last lap.
• Leaving Hamilton out on tyres so badly worn they were down to the canvas; Bridgestone themselves demanded that McLaren bring him in and McLaren refused, keeping him out for a few more laps. That decision arguably cost Hamilton the first rookie WDC and is one which will haunt him and McLaren for the rest of their days.
• Not sending Button and Hamilton out to get banker laps in during Q1.
• Sending Hamilton out on used tyres in Q3, with rain forecast, meaning it would be impossible to set a fast lap time on his second attempt on new tyres.

Their major updates seem to send them further down the grid, instead of challenging for pole positions and wins. As the season progresses they tend to get worse before getting better, by which time it is generally too late.

It's often said of them "write them off at your peril", but is this necessarily true?

The last time they won the WCC was in 1998 and their last WDC was 2008, before that 1999.
Their days of regularly winning championships seem to be well and truly behind them.

It's all well and good coming up with reasons why they haven't won championships.
The fact remains though, they have won just one WDC in the last 12 years.

So where to now for McLaren?

(I wrote this in rather a hurry so I will flesh it out when I have more time.)

 

[Il_leone]

Without having itemised them all, it seems to me that McLaren have made a lot more mistakes than Red Bull in total this season.

I'll use

Monaco as an example

Red Bull actually fluffed their pit stop by having Webber's tyres when Vettel came in and lost the lead and in the panic they fitted the hard tyres on Vettel. This delayed Webber. A stroke of fortune was when the SC came out for clearing Massa's car and Mclaren decided to pit Button on another soft set. This meant Red Bull went back into the lead and did not have to pit again so they tried to do the distance

Mclaren were expecting the cliff for the tyres to go and then the carnage caused by Algarsuari meant Red Bull were allowed to fit new tyres at the start

Mclaren on the other hand messed up Hamilton's pit stop and put him back a bit

Both teams messed up at Monaco but the luck went Red Bull

Ditto again at Silverstone

Red Bull bungled Vettel's tyre stop and lost the lead
Mclaren bungled Button's stop and cost him a podium

There have been incidences where Red Bull have been extremely lucky like the numerous they seem to have kers issues ..

If anything if there was a mistake to be made in the Red Bull team it always seems to happen to Webber

 

[ExtremeNinja]

You can suggest it. But P1, P2, P3, Q2 and the first 9 mins of Q3 suggest McLaren had the measure of the Red Bull.

Let me suggest Button's not in Vettel's league when it comes to ultimate pace. Today confirmed it.

Let me also suggest that it was McLaren's Pole to take today. Button's simply not fast enough...and Hamilton had yet another issue.

It was track position that got Vettel pole today. If McLaren had the sense to send Button and Hamilton out first then it could have been either of them backing everyone up and getting the lap in in clean air. Button, Vettel and Lewis all put in brilliant laps when they had the opportunity and Seb might have finished third. The way I look at it was that pole was decided from the pitwall today.

 

[Speshal]

Mod comment:

If you want to discuss what happened in qualifying please use the Japanese PQR thread.

Thanks

 

[landogeorgelewis1]

Well this seasons over now, so i'm hoping Mclaren go all out and make sure Button finishes second in the WDC and make sure they wrap up the runners-up spot in the WCC very soon.

I'm assuming Button will get the number 3 on his car next season if Mclaren finish second and he finishes ahead of Hamilton in the WDC.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

First of all, CONGRATULATIONS to McLaren for a great win!

Secondly, congratulations to McLaren for beating arch-enemy Ferrari!

So much for Ferrari thinking they would "walk" Suzuka. It's a lesson in Counting Your Chickens!

Thirdly, I don't think the season's over for any driver. (Vettel will want to collect stats, Alonso will want to win a race or two...so will Webber.)

McLaren will want to win all 4 races.

Hamilton will want to win races and beat Button in the WDC. Button will want to cast a huge doubt in Hamilton's mind about re-establishing himself as the primary championship challenger for McLaren in the future.

There are 100 points on offer and 32 points between Button and Hamilton.

That's less than 14 points in old money. The McLaren is a winning car and is capable of winning more races so the gap between BUT-HAM isn't much really.

Hamilton should do everything in his power to beat Button in the Championship and vice versa. It's the only Grandee without a firm pecking order for the 2011 Championship and having a psycological advantage over your teammate will be all important.

2011 is by no means over. McLaren exist to win...and there are four races to still to be won and lost!

Exciting!

 

[Porceliamone]

The last three years as a whole have followed the same pattern: Catchup.

McLaren need to be fast straight out of the traps next year; not spending inordinate amounts of time and resource developing their car in season (I appreciate this happens anyway) to catch the guys who are bang on it 'straight out of the box', (read 'Red Bull').

This will have a huge knock on effect to their driver performance(s) and team harmony/stability as a whole.

Why has a driver like Vettel been so happy and positive all season? Because he hasn't had to take big risks and scragg the arse out of his car to even be in contention to win a GP, let alone actually win it.

In my eyes that is the fundamental problem at McLaren for the last three seasons. Sort that and the rest will take care of itself, barring the odd hiccough along the way (which all teams face during a season).

 

[FB]

McLaren need to be fast straight out of the traps next year; not spending inordinate amounts of time and resource developing their car in season (I appreciate this happens anyway) to catch the guys who are bang on it 'straight out of the box', (read 'Red Bull').

This always used to be one of Mclaren's strengths in the early Ron Dennis years and then they would tail off a bit toward the end of the season. Think back to the early 80's and Mclaren used to blitz everyone for the first few races as the other teams worked out the best way to set their cars up. I appreciate that cars and set up are now a lot more complex than they were then but there does seem to be something missing in Mclaren's DNA these days.

Maybe Sam Michael will sort things out?

 

[Josh]

Fun fact: this weekend will be Mclaren's 700th Grand Prix. If they win, it will be their 175th victory.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

This will have a huge knock on effect to their driver performance(s) and team harmony/stability as a whole.

The harmony will go out the window very quickly if both Hamilton and Button are in contention to win the 2012 WDC.

You can kiss the 'harmony' goodbye in that scenario. Each will want to dismantle the other and either Vettel or Alonso could split them and come through to take the top prize.

McLaren philosophy - where they refuse to nominate a Number 1 until late (possibly too late) in the season (if at all) - simply isn't conducive to winning a WDC. It's very conducive to winning the WCC, but that doesn't help Hamilton or Button.

Does it?

 

[Slyboogy]

Why not? It could bring out the best in both of them

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

Why not? It could bring out the best in both of them

It might ... but it still might not win them the title if they're shaving points off each other and not getting the primary focus that Alonso at Ferrari and Vettel at RBR would be getting.

You saw what happened in Canada. And also Hungary where one of the McLarens was going to be the loser, either due to that one crucial pitstop at that crucial time or because of excessive pressure (which led to Hamilton's spin).

Going back to your statement, it might also go the other way and cause disharmony and friction and be destructive. It's happened at McLaren before so it's not a new concept.

 

[Vortex]

Just wait and see, if that happens Martin will be on the radio ‘OK Lewis, Button is faster than you, do you understand?’

Ps, I’m joking people!!!! Just a bit of humour. (don’t wanna cause a row lol)

 

[Il_leone]

The last three years as a whole have followed the same pattern: Catchup.

McLaren need to be fast staright out of the traps next year; not spending inordinate amounts of time and resource developing their car in season (I appreciate this happens anyway) to catch the guys who are bang on it 'straight out of the box', (read 'Red Bull').

This will have a huge knock on effect to their driver performance(s) and team harmony/stability as a whole.

Why has a driver like Vettel been so happy and positive all season? Because he hasn't had to take big risks and scragg the arse out of his car to even be in contention to win a GP, let alone actually win it.

In my eyes that is the fundamental problem at McLaren for the last three seasons. Sort that and the rest will take care of itself, barring the odd hiccough along the way (which all teams face during a season).

mclaren were fast out of the traps because their cars were designed by Adrian Newey ironically or they had the mighty Honda power engine with Senna at the wheel

Last year they actually stole a march on the opposition with the innovative F-Duct and got caught on the more aero tracks like Hungary

BUT they still could have won the title had Lewis not made his ill timed move in MOnza and a few slips letting Alonso by at the end of the season

I've said it many times Red Bull have mad mistakes this season but seems to have got away with it whereas Mclaren get punished for theirs

 

[Galahad]

Ferrari's number one-number two policy certainly seems to be very harmonious, I must say.

McLaren's plan surely is the same as Red Bull's - to build a car so fast that they win the WDC without needing to implement team orders. It's only when it becomes marginal that it's a problem, as in '86 or '07.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

Ferrari's number one-number two policy certainly seems to be very harmonious, I must say.

Sure. Ferrari's driver policy, however, isn't the best if you want to win the WCC or as many Grand Prix races as possible.

Had they had a better driver in the 2nd car, they could have won in China last year, possibly Monaco...and also in Canada this year.

Massa's been broken (in).

McLaren's plan surely is the same as Red Bull's - to build a car so fast that they win the WDC without needing to implement team orders. It's only when it becomes marginal that it's a problem, as in '86 or '07.

Back to McLarens.

We're in a Control Era in terms of engines, tyres and other chassis specs and so it'll be harder for a car to be truly dominant AND reliable (RB7 seems like an outlier). Which means it'll be more "marginal", to use your term, than not.

McLaren's policy is very conducive to winning the WCC but I can't see either driver being World Champion next year without there being a hell of a lot of friction. In fact there could be a hell of a lot of friction and still they get pipped by a Vettel or an Alonso or even a Mercedes driver if that car comes good.

 

[Senna's_right_foot]

McLaren's policy is very conducive to winning the WCC but I can't see either driver being World Champion next year without there being a hell of a lot of friction. In fact there could be a hell of a lot of friction and still they get pipped by a Vettel or an Alonso or even a Mercedes driver if that car comes good.

Not sure why you think there could be friction between Hamilton and Button? The two have raced wheel to wheel on a number of occasions in the past 2 seasons and there has been no friction or bad blood between them. In fact of all the teams McLaren seem to have the best pairing in terms of drivers who not only get on very well with each other but also are very comfortable racing each other. All in all if McLaren can produce a front running car straight out of the box then I expect them to be in a very good position.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

The two have raced wheel to wheel on a number of occasions in the past 2 seasons and there has been no friction or bad blood between them.

There was friction at Turkey last year but they put on a good public face. Actually Lewis was the least happiest i've ever seen him after a win. Looked like his dog had died.

China this year same. Jenson left Lewis to twist in the wind. Luckily Lewis won anyway.

Canada this year could have been a big blow up but they avoided it. All of it was happening when they weren't really fighting it out for Number 1 in the WDC.

It will change if the two are in a straight fight for the World Championship. It will get to a point where one of them will leave McLaren.

 

[Senna's_right_foot]

There was friction at Turkey last year but they put on a good public face.

China this year same. Canada this year could have been a big blow up but they avoided it.

All of it was happening when they weren't really fighting it out for Number 1 in the WDC.

It will change if the two are in a straight fight for the World Championship. It will get to a point where one of them will leave McLaren.

As I recall there wasn't friction between the two drivers, the problem was with the fact that Hamilton was told to conserve fuel and was told (or assumed, I forget) that Button was doing the same. Button passed Hamilton, Hamilton wondered what was happening and subsequently repassed him. No friction between drivers.
China, Hamilton passed Button, Button turned in not expecting Hamilton to have made such a late move but then when he saw Hamilton he immediately gave him room. No friction between the drivers, simply racing.
Again, i'm not sure what your end game is here? The two drivers get on very well and as i've said race together wheel to wheel quite happily. Of course both would prefer to be WDC over the other but there is absolutely no evidence to suggest there has been or would/could be 'friction' between the two, nor that 'one of them will leave McLaren'.
No offence Ray but you're trying to find an issue where there isn't one.
However, I do agree that McLaren's policy of not having a designated No.1 and a No.2 lackey a la Ferrari could prove detrimental to any chance of winning a closely fought WDC, but only purely in terms of the drivers taking points from each other and the others sneaking by at the post (see Kimi 2007).

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

China, Hamilton passed Button, Button turned in not expecting Hamilton to have made such a late move but then when he saw Hamilton he immediately gave him room.

My friend, that's not what I'm not referring to.

I'm talking about Jenson not coming in on his scheduled lap at the end of of the 1st stint. It left Lewis out an extra lap longer on tyres that were degrading rapidly ("falling off a cliff") which allowed Massa to catch and pass him. Lewis lost 3 seconds on that lap on those tyres.

That was naughty of Button and Whitmarsh was unhappy about how Button's disobedience cost Hamilton race position.

Luckily, Lewis had saved tyres in qually and won the race anyway. If he had barely been beaten into second by Vettel, there would have been an uproar.

Things are very marginal at times.

We'll revisit these posts next year if Lewis-Jenson are in a very tight fight for the title with at least one other driver in the mix.

 

[Senna's_right_foot]

Still no evidence of friction between the drivers though is there?
Could have, would have, should have, if if if. Why didn't you just say that in the first place
And 'marginal' makes things all the more exciting, doesn't it
I still don't see how any of that will make one of them leave McLaren though.