McLaren and its handling of two number ones
- Thread starter Cookinflatsix
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Umm I'm not sure Jenson would role over and play dead as easily as Massa and anyway Massa was only world champion for about 20 seconds..
It is true Button had nothing this weekend and I don't mind being the first to admit that, in fact he was down right pathetic,,
The situation at Ferrari won't be helping them win the WCC as while Alonso is steaming off and in contention for a world championship, he can't win the WCC for Ferrari by themselves as Massa is that far behind and struggling to get into the points. It's all very well having a clear number 1/2, but it's not taking Ferrari ahead of McLaren in the Constructors even if Alonso finishes higher than the two McLaren drivers at the next few races
I think the WCC situation at Ferrari is down to how poor Massa is driving, not their driver structure.
McLaren's handling of two number ones isn't the cause of their problems, it's down to them employing a bunch of people that are (, how should I put this?...) mentally challenged.
McLaren's handling of two number ones isn't the cause of their problems, it's down to them employing a bunch of people that are (, how should I put this?...) mentally challenged.
Cookinflatsix
Banned
no-FIAt-please that is unfair to the team McLaren and its staff. There is no proof that anyone at Mac is worse than their counterpart at Red Bull. Its like Chelsea under AVB, not motivated, efficient or producing as a team, whereas under a back room assistant manager, trophies and success, same staff
An example, lets say that there are two different left hand tyre men, one of them has 10 years experience, the other is new. Lets say the experienced one is used only for the current leader as a strategy to allow each to have a turn. Lets say the newbie freezes twice, would you then;
A) let him continue (you dont want to damage his ego and confidence and everyone makes mistakes)
B) send him home and use the other guy for both drivers
C) Do nothing whatsoever because everything is programmed before the race and sticking to plan A is what it says in the manual
Lets say the decision made turns out in hindsight to be the wrong one, would the resultant disaster be the fault of;
A) the inexperienced guy?
B) his manager
C) the guy who designed the pitstop procedure
D) the guy responsible for all 3 who let it happen 5 times in a row?
An example, lets say that there are two different left hand tyre men, one of them has 10 years experience, the other is new. Lets say the experienced one is used only for the current leader as a strategy to allow each to have a turn. Lets say the newbie freezes twice, would you then;
A) let him continue (you dont want to damage his ego and confidence and everyone makes mistakes)
B) send him home and use the other guy for both drivers
C) Do nothing whatsoever because everything is programmed before the race and sticking to plan A is what it says in the manual
Lets say the decision made turns out in hindsight to be the wrong one, would the resultant disaster be the fault of;
A) the inexperienced guy?
B) his manager
C) the guy who designed the pitstop procedure
D) the guy responsible for all 3 who let it happen 5 times in a row?
RickD
Pole Sitter
Brogan - Yes, it worked for Red Bull as they had such a dominant car (and a car that didn't eat its tyres within a few laps) that even with Webber driving it, it was still at the sharp end most of the time. Ferrari have a whole different problem with regards to Massa, I think what we saw yesterday when Alonso got behind Maldanado in the last stint is the issue with these tyres and maybe Massa's main issue with the current car/tyres. Jenson also alluded to this problem by his comments about the feeling of the car in clear air as opposed to behind another car. It seems that when getting behind another car for a while, the tyres get destroyed due to sliding around more and therefore scrubbing the grip from the tyres (whether this is due to heat loss or not, I really don't know). If your driving style rely's on the grip level at a certain time or you take longer to put heat back into the tyres, you are going to suffer a lot more as soon as you get in traffic.
For even Alonso to only be able to attack Maldonado for a lap or two (once within a second) says a lot about the tyres. Lewis on the other hand got past a lot of people yesterday, but all the overtakes he made were quick and he didn't wait around behind any of them for more than a few corners. If any of you watched the Sky feed after the race, Ant explained it very well with Lewis' overtake of the Torro Rossos.
For even Alonso to only be able to attack Maldonado for a lap or two (once within a second) says a lot about the tyres. Lewis on the other hand got past a lot of people yesterday, but all the overtakes he made were quick and he didn't wait around behind any of them for more than a few corners. If any of you watched the Sky feed after the race, Ant explained it very well with Lewis' overtake of the Torro Rossos.
This thread is to discuss the successes and failures of McLaren having two equal number ones. It is not to compare those two number ones - as you all know there is already a thread for that.
Cookinflatsix Why is it that McLaren keep pissing away their advantage? We saw last year what an organised team can achieve when they have a moderate car advantage, McLaren (or Hamilton in particular) had an advantage in Spain and with his race pace Hamilton could have cruised to victory in Spain, but he came away with 3 points and not 25.
The championship table speaks for itself. Alonso in that Ferrari (he has had some luck I admit) is joint leading the championship and Vettel's RB8 hasn't been a match for the McLaren so far, yet Hamilton is trailing both drivers by 8 points. If it's not his car or his own driving (or bad luck) then the fault clearly lies within the team.
The championship table speaks for itself. Alonso in that Ferrari (he has had some luck I admit) is joint leading the championship and Vettel's RB8 hasn't been a match for the McLaren so far, yet Hamilton is trailing both drivers by 8 points. If it's not his car or his own driving (or bad luck) then the fault clearly lies within the team.
Cookinflatsix
Banned
Yes the fault lies within the team but at higher and higher levels the more it reccurs, if you replace staff and the problems continue then its the process thats wrong, so someone new might be able to get better out of the resources available by using a different approach.
Cookinflatsix
Banned
Whitmarsh has said some very nice and complimentary things about LH. Similar to his eulogies for JB last year he has also evoked the spirit of the greatest of them all, Fangio for LH
This is all very well and good but it raises some interesting questions;
1. Was he unaware of LHs true potential and character previously? if not could that have affected his handling of LH and JB, could this have caused a mismanagement of his drivers to some degree?
2. If he has only just realised that his balance sheet has a greatly undervalued asset, will he change things to better accomodate this appreciation? If so what exactly that will not be of the detriment to his other number one driver, of whom it was of no fault that Whitmarsh under valued his other asset LH
3. He has admitted making the wrong decision wrt the final Q3 lap, what is he doing to rectify the decision making process that is therefore flawed
If I was a major shareholder or potential stakeholder these are the questions I would be most curious about at a general level to be persuaded that he is not talking to save his job and can keep his two stars
This is all very well and good but it raises some interesting questions;
1. Was he unaware of LHs true potential and character previously? if not could that have affected his handling of LH and JB, could this have caused a mismanagement of his drivers to some degree?
2. If he has only just realised that his balance sheet has a greatly undervalued asset, will he change things to better accomodate this appreciation? If so what exactly that will not be of the detriment to his other number one driver, of whom it was of no fault that Whitmarsh under valued his other asset LH
3. He has admitted making the wrong decision wrt the final Q3 lap, what is he doing to rectify the decision making process that is therefore flawed
If I was a major shareholder or potential stakeholder these are the questions I would be most curious about at a general level to be persuaded that he is not talking to save his job and can keep his two stars
Cookinflatsix
Banned
It is said often that Whitmarsh is not responsible for the errors made by members of the team, but the worst and most costly, reputation and pointswise, was made by Whitmarsh himself and can be said to have been a cavalier and excessively risky gamble gone wrong.
Does this point to some of the other 'extreme' decisions made in the last few years?
Does this point to some of the other 'extreme' decisions made in the last few years?
RickD
Pole Sitter
Cookinflatsix - So, when Whitmarsh praises his driver in a PRESS INTERVIEW*, he is wrong and when he doesn't he is wrong?! I'm confused, what exactly has he done wrong? Are your attacks on his character simply delusion or are they very personal for you? Did he possibly wrong you in some very personal way in the past?
* Yes, its in capitals for a reason as no one says anything of any import in press interviews and they are usually full of fluff.
* Yes, its in capitals for a reason as no one says anything of any import in press interviews and they are usually full of fluff.
racecub
Champion Elect
Whitmarsh "My affection and admiration for Lewis have been enhanced by events this weekend. The relationship between Lewis and the team is stronger and better and hopefully we will work together for a long time."
Is that so? I find that comment beggars belief. Whitmarsh has worked closely with Lewis since Lewis was a 13yr old boy. And only now does he realise lewis' full potential? Its taken 13yrs to arrive at this? Then his judgement of talent and personality is woefully lacking for someone in his position. In fact I cant accept he's suddenly realised this.
So the alternative is, he's known Lewis' capabilities and personality for quite some time but for some reson has a problem with Lewis(His own ego? hang over from the contract row with Anthony?) Dunno, could be anything. And thats fine. We can't help who we like and dislike. But we can treat people we have a problem with professionally and with respect . Whitmarsh hasn't done this with Lewis. His comments and digs over the past couple of years; such as ......Lewis doesnt look after his tyres, Lewis is upset that Jenson beat him, Jenson can run a team and Lewis is learning and on and on and on, All of which Lewis has refuted either by his comments or actions on track; show a lack of respect and consideration for Lewis as a person and as a porfessional.
So why the sudden change? He's suddenly realised lewis worth? or he's eternally grateful that lewis didnt stoop to his level and play pay back? Lewis had ample reason to do so after this and last season but he rose above it and supported the team. Lets hope Whitmarsh has learnt his leason and isnt just mouthing platitudes because he's in a tight spot.
Is that so? I find that comment beggars belief. Whitmarsh has worked closely with Lewis since Lewis was a 13yr old boy. And only now does he realise lewis' full potential? Its taken 13yrs to arrive at this? Then his judgement of talent and personality is woefully lacking for someone in his position. In fact I cant accept he's suddenly realised this.
So the alternative is, he's known Lewis' capabilities and personality for quite some time but for some reson has a problem with Lewis(His own ego? hang over from the contract row with Anthony?) Dunno, could be anything. And thats fine. We can't help who we like and dislike. But we can treat people we have a problem with professionally and with respect . Whitmarsh hasn't done this with Lewis. His comments and digs over the past couple of years; such as ......Lewis doesnt look after his tyres, Lewis is upset that Jenson beat him, Jenson can run a team and Lewis is learning and on and on and on, All of which Lewis has refuted either by his comments or actions on track; show a lack of respect and consideration for Lewis as a person and as a porfessional.
So why the sudden change? He's suddenly realised lewis worth? or he's eternally grateful that lewis didnt stoop to his level and play pay back? Lewis had ample reason to do so after this and last season but he rose above it and supported the team. Lets hope Whitmarsh has learnt his leason and isnt just mouthing platitudes because he's in a tight spot.
Some of the gushing quotes after this weekend do lend credence to the notion that Jenson has been MW's "favored son" at McLaren. The fact that it took a monumental gaffe from the team for Marty to recognize some of Lewis' qualities is a bit disturbing.
And this might be better suited somewhere else, but I'll post it here anyway. I read that the team told Lewis on Saturday night that ONLY his final Quali time was being excluded. He thought he was going to start P7. So we're left with two scenarios;
A - They lied to Lewis.
B - The FIA changed the original ruling
Neither of which are very re-assuring.
And this might be better suited somewhere else, but I'll post it here anyway. I read that the team told Lewis on Saturday night that ONLY his final Quali time was being excluded. He thought he was going to start P7. So we're left with two scenarios;
A - They lied to Lewis.
B - The FIA changed the original ruling
Neither of which are very re-assuring.
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