Is overtaking overrated?

[Muddytalker]

Not as dull as Valencia surely?! What is it about that tack?

I don't know though... Barcelona is always a procession and I suppose that is very Dijon like.

But Barcelona is still fairly flat.

Dijon, Spa, Interlagos, they all have elevation changes. I should sit down and do soma calcs to prove it, but I have a theory that the negative effect on the following car from a leading car is reduced on a slope, whether it be uphill or downhill.

"Aha! But what about Monza?!" I hear you cry. Well, Monza had slipstreamers before wings/aerodynamics were so major, and before the chicanes - Pre-chicanes, Monza was effectively a Nascar track, with 4 straights connected by 4 fast bends. You could argue the same about early Silverstone. Now, if you opened up these two tracks to their original layout, the wings on modern F1 cars would be reduced (and I bet Newey would try and make the Red Bull run without erm, wings), and you might, just might get a return to the slipstreamers.

So the formula would appear to be - Either lots of up and downs, or if it has to be flat then make it fast with minimal braking.

In recent interviews with Herman it's quite clear that while he overseas the construction of the circuit he gets a lot of "Ideas" from a well known grey haired gentleman of limited stature.

Tilkes (or is it Bernies) problem is that he seems to rely on the same trick at every circuit which is the long straight followed by the low gear corner. Let's have some variation Hermie, please.........
In recent interviews with Herman it's quite clear that while he overseas the construction of the circuit he gets a lot of "Ideas" from a well known grey haired gentleman of limited stature.

Tilkes (or is it Bernies) problem is that he seems to rely on the same trick at every circuit which is the long straight followed by the low gear corner. Let's have some variation Hermie, please.........

Bernie wants tracks with sponsors visible everywhere, and in view for as long as possible that's his sole requirement.

 

[snowy]

But Barcelona is still fairly flat.

There are plenty of changes in elevation on the Barcelona circuit, perhaps they are in the wrong places?...

But I like the theory of ups and downs negating the negative effects of aerodynamic devices. ... double negative.

 

[snowy]

Veering wildly back off one track and on to another...

The Abu Dhabi GP is still being flamed for its lack of overtaking opportunities, yet I distinctly remember being riveted by Jenson Button's hunting down of Mark Webber and his larey attempts at overtaking. It looked to me that Mark, while struggling with his car was far too wiley to cede the position and that a lesser driver would not have succeeded in holding Jenson off.

Stepping sideways a bit, for a rant...
Far from there being too little overtaking on track I put it to you that 70% of the problem lies with the TV coverage. If memory serves they do not use a dedicated F1 Producer and that the producer for each race comes from the country where the GP is held.

Often we are blessed with a replay of an overtaking manoeuvre and 99% of the time 99% of the most important part of the manoeuvre is missing! Getting a better entry and exit at the preceeding bend is the critical prelude to a successful or failed overtake, and yet we seldom if ever are treated to this critical phase. Only when the producer's attention has nowhere else to go - as exampled by the penultimate laps in Abu Dhabi - do we get to see what racing is all about.

Looking to the future...
I'm pretty sure that with the absence of refueling we are going to be treated to some fundamentally different activity on track with drivers far more earnest about getting past the guy in front. Even if there is no more actual quantitive difference in overtaking there will be a qualitative improvement in the racing. Even if it is only cosmetic brought about by the fact that there will be even more bored producers fumbling about for what may or may not qualify as on track action...

 

[Brogan]

TV coverage is partly to blame, especially when the director is very partisan and focuses on the driver from his own country, regardless of what else is happening.

With regards to Abu Dhabi this year though, there were only 6 passes so there wasn't much to miss anyway, hence why there were so many shots of the hotel (ooooh! look at the pretty lights ) and Ferrari World...

 

[LifeW12]

Field spread is something that seriously hinders overtaking and usually happens at tight and twisty tracks. In most races the cars start close of the grid and then the gaps just increase at a steady rate between the cars and for overtaking, forget it.

Its what happened at Valencia and Abu Dhabi.

 

[snowy]

Haven't seen this old chestnut for a while!

Since the debarcle in Bahrain it would seem the panic has eased, however it hasn't made any difference to the insane remedies being put forward and touted by the reformed OWG!

Their proposals to reintroduce KERs and a moveable rear wing that can only be trimmed when within one second of an opposing car fill me with the kind of loathing and disgust I usually reserve for racists!

In the fight between two drivers only the following driver is allowed to use this advantage. A minimum distance between two vehicles exists depending of the circuit where the push to pass button may be pushed. The distance will be equal to one second according to some tech bosses. If the driver is farer away he cannot use the system.

The driver gets a green light on the dash that shows him when he is close enough. At the end of the straight the driver has to bring the wing back to the initial position by another push of the button. If the driver forgets to reset the reset will be initiated automatically (by the SECU) to prevent him overshooting his braking point due to lack of downforce.

How stupendously mental is that?

Just how is this SECU supposed to know where Lewis Hamilton's braking point is?

This wing idea goes against every common sense, every sense of fair play and every rational corpuscle of my being...

 

[Brogan]

I agree.

When I read about the rear wing proposal, linked to GPS and only able to be activated by the chasing driver I thought to myself that's the beginning of the end for F1.

I hope this ridiculous idea gets shelved and never sees the light of day again.

 

[cider_and_toast]

Proof that if the OWG have nothing constructive to say they should say nothing.

Its pretty clear to one and all that the most productive rule change to increase on track overtaking has been the ban on re-fuelling. What this single rule change has done is effectively render the bulk of the last few years of work by the OWG pretty useless. Last season most of the OWG's work was implemented including, wider front wings, narrow rear wings, KERS, adjustable front wing aero etc and it didn't make a jot of difference.

While Bahrain sent a lot of people in to a tail spin fortunately the remainder of the races so far this season have proved that there isn't too much else that needs doing to the sport at the moment with the possible exception of the tyres. Let's hope that wiser heads can prevail.

 

[FB]

Well Micheal Schumacher thinks overtaking is overrated, witness the efforts he made in Canada to stop anyone from getting past him.

More serioulsy, I think the main reason we have seen more overtaking this year is a combination of the refueling ban but also the stability in the rules. Brawn got it most right at the beginning of 2009 and everyone else had to catch up. Now, as they have all had a season to work on their designs, the field is closing up.

Time to cock it all up by making lot's of radical changes for next year - what do we have now:

KERS
No double diffusers
Variable rear wings
New tyre supplier (although Bridgestone pulling out isn't really the FIA's fault)

Any more?

 

[Enja]

KERS
No double diffusers
Variable rear wings
New tyre supplier (although Bridgestone pulling out isn't really the FIA's fault)

I'm very worried about the variable rear wings. Really hope they aren't effective, because if they are, I can't watch it.

 

[Brogan]

Time to cock it all up by making lot's of radical changes for next year - what do we have now:

KERS
No double diffusers
Variable rear wings
New tyre supplier (although Bridgestone pulling out isn't really the FIA's fault)

Any more?

The minimum weight is also increasing by 20 kg to 640 kg.

I would also argue that the changes from 2008 to 2009 were more radical (slicks, KERS, moveable front wings) and then from 2009 to 2010 there were also major changes (no refuelling, KERS dropped, narrower front tyres).

 

[slickskid]

I just get the feeling the variable rear is an accident waiting to happen

 

[Brogan]

What happens if there are 3 cars in a row?

Only the chasing guy can activate his rear wing so what about the guy in the middle?
He's chasing the guy in front so is he also allowed to activate his?
If so, what happens when he moves out to overtake, does it stop working as he's now alongside the guy he was chasing?

Bloody stupid idea.

 

[Muddytalker]

I'm hoping they are adopting the Max and Bernie technique of, "We'll say we want x, knowing there will be such an uproar against it that we can then suggest y as a compromise, which is what we really want but won't get if we suggest it first."

 

[Galahad]

That rear wing idea is just about the most extraordinary thing I have heard. Even Max didn't come up with anything as mad as that.

They should stick to dropping the double diffusers and going back to the original intention of the 2009 regulations, which haven't been properly tried yet. A change of tyre supplier is unavoidable (though the FIA set the financially unfavourable terms, Bridgestone only have themselves to blame for signing that contract), but I doubt that having Pirelli as sole supplier will really change much - conservatism is an essential feature of any control supplier arrangement.

All I'd like to see is free development of KERS. Sadly I don't think the FIA can control the safety aspects adequately. But then, things aren't going badly at the moment are they? If it ain't broke...

 

[Enja]

What happens if there are 3 cars in a row?

Only the chasing guy can activate his rear wing so what about the guy in the middle?
He's chasing the guy in front so is he also allowed to activate his?
If so, what happens when he moves out to overtake, does it stop working as he's now alongside the guy he was chasing?

Bloody stupid idea.

Good point.

 

[Bullfrog]

However we've arrived at the current regs, intended or otherwise, please can we just keep them for a while? This season has been one of the best for ages, not only do we have a close contest for the titles but we actually have some close racing to go with it!

 

[Brogan]

Sadly the stupid bloody overtaking proposal is being implemented for 2011.

From 2011, adjustable bodywork may be activated by the driver at any time prior to the start of the race and, for the sole purpose of improving overtaking opportunities during the race, after the driver has completed two laps. The driver may only activate the adjustable bodywork in the race when he has been notified via the control electronics that it is enabled. It will only be enabled if the driver is less than one second behind another at any of the pre-determined positions around each circuit. The system will be disabled the first time the driver uses the brakes after the system has been activated. The FIA may, after consulting all the competitors, adjust the time proximity in order to ensure the purpose of the adjustable bodywork is met.

A very sad day for F1.

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/pressreleases/wmsc/2010/Pages/wmsc_230610.aspx

 

[snowy]

Re: Is overtaking overrated and under funded?

Is overtaking overrated and under funded?

Pat Symmonds on recent plans to reduce aero dependence and re-introduce ground effects:

Both of those bits of work suggested that if you tried to produce the downforce from the bodywork then it was going to be badly affected by the wake. So what little evidence there is suggests it is not such a great thing to do.

I have spoken to Rory in great, great detail about the work that he and Patrick [Head] have done, and we have spoken for many hours on the phone about this. But it is all being done on CFD and there has been absolutely no work done on overtaking at all. Nothing. Therefore it is quite worrying, isn't it?

The one thing that we suffered from in the last OWG was we could only work with quarter-scale models because of the size of the tunnel. Someone needs to put the money up and say, let's go to Mercedes and use one of the big tunnels that is not in use, let's have bigger models and let's do the work properly. It is going to cost money – but F1 has got money. It is time it invested in itself.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/89068

 

[RickD]

Sadly the stupid bloody overtaking proposal is being implemented for 2011.

From 2011, adjustable bodywork may be activated by the driver at any time prior to the start of the race and, for the sole purpose of improving overtaking opportunities during the race, after the driver has completed two laps. The driver may only activate the adjustable bodywork in the race when he has been notified via the control electronics that it is enabled. It will only be enabled if the driver is less than one second behind another at any of the pre-determined positions around each circuit. The system will be disabled the first time the driver uses the brakes after the system has been activated. The FIA may, after consulting all the competitors, adjust the time proximity in order to ensure the purpose of the adjustable bodywork is met.

A very sad day for F1.

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/pressreleases/wmsc/2010/Pages/wmsc_230610.aspx

So, how long before one of the drivers presses the brakes and the wing doesn't move? I would hate that prospect as a driver, especially around certain parts of a circuit..