Is overtaking overrated?

[snowy]

Is overtaking overrated?

A lot is said about the need to promote overtaking in F1 but is entertaining motorracing really just about overtaking? I have enjoyed the last five seasons of F1, and the last three seasons has seen my levels of adrenaline, anticipation and attention rise dramatically.

I have a great affection and respect for Jenson Button and am an unabashed Lewis Hamilton fanboy! This may have some baring on my improved demeanour and lack of disillusion with F1.

 

[cider_and_toast]

I would say, Name your favourite races in the time you've been watching F1 and then look at why they were your favourites and how many times ovetaking was a part of the equation.

It's a bit like asking "Is scoring goals in Football, overated"

 

[Brogan]

In my opinion I would say overtaking in this form of racing is essential.

F1 isn't a time trial, neither is it a sprint race (well, it's not supposed to be but has become that thanks to refuelling/pit stops) and it's not a distance race like Le Mans either.

Without overtaking, or at least drivers competing very closely on the track and fighting for places, then F1 is just a 2 hour procession.

Of course overtaking isn't the be all and end all of F1 but it should play a large part of it.
Otherwise we might as well declare the race after qualifying.

What it shouldn't be though is artificial overtaking for the sake of it.
I refer here to NASCAR and other similar series.

After F1, my next favourite series is BTCC. Is that because there's lots of overtaking and some pushing and shoving amongst the participants?
Possibly.

 

[snowy]

I too am an avid watcher of the BTCC however I deplore violence of any kind! I also balk at the perverse... pardon me... reverse grids. They irritate the hell out of me.

I have also watched every 125, 250, 500 and MotoGP since about 1988 and a hell of a lot of superbike races. And they overtake a lot! Yet I am just far more interested in F1! All that overtaking and danger has never managed to divert my attention and passion away from what can only be described as a hugely expensive parade of open wheeled cars....

 

[FB]

In a word no, and here's a short clip to back up my argument...

 

[snowy]

The interesting thing about that duel is that both drivers would have been penalised if they drove like that in this century. The FIA's overreaction to Schumacher has had as much to do with constipating overtaking as aerodynamics.

 

[cider_and_toast]

The incredable thing about the Arnoux / Villeneuve battle is that it was only for second place.

If only we could take all the ingrediants that made this a classic, bottle it and pass them round at the FIA Christmas party. (and send a special brew to Herman Tilke while we're at it)

 

[Muddytalker]

If only we could take all the ingrediants that made this a classic, bottle it and pass them round at the FIA Christmas party. (and send a special brew to Herman Tilke while we're at it)

Let's see.

The no refuelling has been covered, but tyre changes rarely happened back in the day
Different chassis design and philosophies
Different engine types (1.5l turbo vs 3.0l N/A)
Steel brakes.
Circuit gradient.
Drivers not penalised for going off-track
Drivers with a personality, but without the bulging wallet.
Anything else?

 

[fedupwithuserids]

muddytalker asked :-

Anything else?

No Bernie.
No Max/Todt.
No Tilke.

 

[Muddytalker]

muddytalker asked :-

Anything else?

No Bernie.
No Max/Todt.
No Tilke.

 

[Cancer Cowboy]

No Bernie.
No Max/Todt.
No Tilke.

So what you're saying is, we want Tilke do design a safe, modern, interesting circuit which allows overtaking?

GP2 has overtaking. Nascar has overtaking. Indycar has overtaking. F3 has overtaking. So, what do we need to take from all those series and implement into F1?

 

[Brogan]

I think it's unfair to blame Tilke, he can only work with what he's given after all.

As we've seen on F1 weekends, the support races seem to manage to overtake on exactly the same tracks that F1 uses.

 

[cider_and_toast]

In recent interviews with Herman it's quite clear that while he overseas the construction of the circuit he gets a lot of "Ideas" from a well known grey haired gentleman of limited stature.

Tilkes (or is it Bernies) problem is that he seems to rely on the same trick at every circuit which is the long straight followed by the low gear corner. Let's have some variation Hermie, please.........

 

[Brogan]

In recent interviews with Herman it's quite clear that while he overseas the construction of the circuit he gets a lot of "Ideas" from a well known grey haired gentleman of limited stature.

Yes, I was going to mention that.
Bernie obviously doesn't think his chief designer is capable so feels the need to screw things up as usual

 

[snowy]

For some odd reason I thought you were about to say:

Tilkes (or is it Bernies) problem is that he seems to rely on smack

Which subsequently reminded me of cocaine decisions... so now I've got Frank Zappa running through my brain laughing:

Chop a line now...
Cocaine decisions...
You are a person with a snow-jon
You got a fancy gotta go job
Where the cocaine decisions that you make today
Will Mean that millions somewhere else
Will do it your way

 

[Cancer Cowboy]

Tilkes (or is it Bernies) problem is that he seems to rely on the same trick at every circuit which is the long straight followed by the low gear corner. Let's have some variation Hermie, please.........

Well, isnt that the best solution for overtaking? Catch up to the car in front of you and out-break him. Voila. Overtaking +1.
I also think that the track itself has nothing to do with overtaking. If you put the cars from 2009 on the Dijon track from 1979 where Arnoux and Villeneuve had the duel, it would be dull as Valencia.

 

[snowy]

Not as dull as Valencia surely?! What is it about that tack?

I don't know though... Barcelona is always a procession and I suppose that is very Dijon like.

 

[Cancer Cowboy]

Not as dull as Valencia surely?! What is it about that tack?

I don't know though... Barcelona is always a procession and I suppose that is very Dijon like.

The layout of Dijon reminds me of fuji. (dont know why).
I know how to solve the problem of overtaking. Put some speed (amphetamine, so someone doesn't take it wrong ) into the drivers bottle with water.

 

[Enja]

It's a bit like asking "Is scoring goals in Football, overated"

I'd disagree with that.

In football, it's more about the chance of scoring goals, in terms of a regular game, that makes it entertaining (or not entertaining, if you're me). Of course there are games where loads of goals are scored and it's really exciting, but without the chance of scoring at all, it wouldn't be entertaining.

In F1, it's the chance of overtaking that appeals. It's the idea that they can if they try that makes it exciting (to me), and having a rule system as we have now that allows for little chance of overtaking ruins it.

Looking at BTCC, there is a decent amount of overtaking. An entertaining amount of overtaking. But because of the way they run so close together, the chance of overtaking, it's perhaps more entertaining than it really should be.

If F1 cars could run closer together than they do now, the chance of overtaking would increase, the more entertaining it becomes because you know there is always the opportunity.

I think it's unfair to blame Tilke, he can only work with what he's given after all.

As we've seen on F1 weekends, the support races seem to manage to overtake on exactly the same tracks that F1 uses.

 

[fedupwithuserids]

Tilke is partially to blame.

Ok I agree that other series are able to overtake on dull F1 tracks.

This shows that the problem is the actual design of F1 cars. I think I and many others have posted on other threads what needs to change. And I think Brogran has a complete breakdown of the effect on overtaking from rule changes.

My point is as a designer Tilke will have a brief to design a safe, modern F1 circuit. That will be entertaining to the real fans and the corporate bandwagon.

It is up to him to design a track that allows F1 cars to overtake, whatever the problem is he is not designing tracks that allow overtaking. Since the traditional tracks (usually more exciting) are now slowly being replaced by Tilke tracks (dull processions), I'm afraid he has failed.

Ok, you could argue that overtaking isn't the be all and end all of F1. But it would be nice to see a bit of wheel to wheel racing, remember the buzz on here about Kobi at the end of last year.

Also see :

http://planetf1.com/story/0,18954,3213_5686236,00.html