Ferrari, McLaren are more entertaining than you. Do you understand?

[RickD]

Two different situations which are hard to compare, button and Hamilton are very close to each other in the championship and both have a slight chance of winning it, at Ferrari the situation is different Alonso has a big gap to Massa (for various reasons) and has a slight chance of winning it.

As a Button fan, even I will take exception at that. Jenson is out of the championship this year barring quite a few retirements from Vettel. If that had been Ferrari, the team would not have allowed Jenson and Lewis to fight it out, so your argument is flawed from the outset if that is your perspective..

 

[RasputinLives]

As I said before and without getting into the who lets who race who scenario. Teams go through different stages depending on sponsors and drivers.

The example I gave earlier of Williams going at it tooth and nail in 86 and 87 when they had the best car but by the time we reach 92 and 93 the pecking order was very much sorted "Damon, Alain is slower than you but let him through anyway".

Yes Ferrari currently have the policy they have due to a dominant driver(nothing wrong with that by the way Senna, Prost, Schumacher etc were all the same) and a major Spanish sponsor. Its a policy they believe in and thats how they go racing. I don't like it anymore than anyone else but I doubt it will be their policy forever. Certainly Ferrari let Massa go for it when he came competitve with Kimi - lets give them their credit there - and in future if the balance of the drivers(and sponsors) is correct I think we'll see it again. Sergio Perez has 'Alonso Slayer' written all over him.

I loved seeing the Mclaren's race like that and is one of the reasons I always stick up for Martin Whitmarsh as after the Senna/Prost 89 incident it was something Mr Dennis tried very hard to not let happen again and Mclaren in the early 90's with Berger has the same thing Ferrari are having leveled at them now with Massa. Which again as I keep saying what comes around goes around.

Ferrari may take the brunt of critisim right now but at least they're honest about it - have you seen Webber and Vettel racing wheel to wheel this year? nope - wonder if Mr Horner would be honest why.

 

[Brogan]

Ferrari may take the brunt of critisim right now but at least they're honest about it - have you seen Webber and Vettel racing wheel to wheel this year? nope - wonder if Mr Horner would be honest why.

Agreed, but the thread title wouldn't have worked quite so well if I had added Red Bull to it

 

[Porceliamone]

It's a real shame that guy who gained my respect with the utter tenacity and subsequent humility he showed in Brazil 2008 has now become a shadow of his former self. A babied lackey, pandering to the needs of the sacred Ferrari number one. Goodness knows how Massa fans feel, or would be prepared to admit how they feel. Enzo would be turing in his grave.

 

[Road of Bones]

The wasp's nest of umbrage has been stirred by what was (to me) a wry comment on the relative racing philosophies of two iconic teams...

Without wanting to delve into specifics, I agree with the sentiment of the article's title - I much prefer McLaren's attitude of "let them race", as I feel it is a more entertaining, and dare I say it - English*, way of going about Motorsport. I have never felt at ease with the Ferrari way, even though I can see it's logic in terms of achieving the optimum result for the team - to me though, it's just "not cricket".

* with apologies to our neighbours North & West of us - I am merely using "English" to extend my metaphor

 

[RasputinLives]

Yep its the British way to let them race!

*starts humming rule Brittania*

Hang on is that DC slowing down to let Mika through to win? again?

 

[Road of Bones]

Very droll Raspy...to be fair though, once Mika had his title in '98, I don't recall DC ever giving way again.

I seem to remember Ron Dennis plaintively saying "why doesn't anyone support us? We're a British team too..." while Williams were at their peak.

 

[Porceliamone]

Yep its the British way to let them race!

*starts humming rule Brittania*

Hang on is that DC slowing down to let Mika through to win? again?

On that point I'll happily join in on the humming.

I thought it was called F1 RACING for a reason. I've seen absolutely no racing contained within the Ferrari team philosophy for years.

 

[RasputinLives]

and my answer to Ron was - "because of you Ron and your very very dull way of speaking"

*hums rule Brittania again*

hang on is that Gerhard Berger handing all his car set up info over to Senna but not being allowed to look at his in return?

At least its not all British teams though - Williams are a pure racing team aren't they?

Radio message comes on "Damon, please move over Renault want Alain to win the title"

 

[Brogan]

For the purposes of this thread, I was only referring to recent(ish) history.

 

[RasputinLives]

I know and I shall stop with the sarcasm.

Currently it is a problem with Red Bull and Ferrari and I agree with your point - but suggesting Mclaren are the bastions of all things pure on this issue is not true - currently they are yes and lets all pat Martin Whitmarsh on the back for that.

My point is that the number 2 not being able to race the number 1 is not a Ferrari philosophy, its not an Italian philosophy and its not a Spanish philosophy - its a Formula One philosophy and has happen throughout the history of the championship through the majority of teams, with drivers from the majority of nations.

I don't like it either but then none of the fans do - I'm just saying lets be careful about getting on our high horses and pointing fingers right now because thinks can quickly change.

 

[cider_and_toast]

While on the subject of Hamilton's time at Mclaren with Kovi, anyone remember this?

In what could be interpreted as a parting shot to the team, Heikki Kovalainen has suggested that he did not enjoy equal treatment as Lewis Hamilton’s McLaren team-mate in 2008 and 2009, something also alleged by Fernando Alonso during his time with the team.

The Finn is now linked with a move to Toyota or Renault, while McLaren weighs up the various pros and cons of pairing Hamilton next year with Kimi Raikkonen or Jenson Button. McLaren insists it operates without a driver hierarchy, but Kovalainen painted a very different picture in an interview with the Finnish newspaper Helsingin Sanomat.

"It was always difficult to accept that Lewis was always the first to receive the new parts,” he said. "I have never wanted to make a big deal about it, but it would have been nice to just once had the new parts on my car, particularly after we lost the chance of winning the championship."

"I could have complained publicly but instead wanted to show the team that I always give maximum effort with the car that I have, and I think they realise that."

Kovalainen also alleges that he has not enjoyed equal status in terms of race strategies.

"Every time this season – when Hamilton and I are in the third part of qualifying – I had to do it with more fuel. If you take into account the quantities of fuel, I would have had pole position several times," he insists.

It's a lot easier to not have to scrap wheel to wheel with your team mate when you have the pick of strategy and parts.

It shouldn't have been a shock to Kovi given this earlier article from 2007

Heikki Kovalainen said: “I want to be in a competitive car to be able to fight for victories and the championship, wherever that is. It does not matter as long as it is competitive and I have equal status with my teammate. I am not willing to support anyone from the beginning of the season, everyone knows this.

"It is OK if the other driver is stronger at the end of the season and if I need to help, then it is fine. But I need to be able to start the season fair and square and with equal treatment and that is very important to me.”

Although Kovalainen is convinced of the driver equality at McLaren, Martin Whithmarsh earlier declared that the main target next season will be to make Lewis Hamilton World Champion and so it seems that the talented young Finn will play second fiddle after all.

 

[Sarinaide]

Sad to see some of the mud slinging going on here, people piece 1 + 1 and get all kinds of notions about Fernando Alonso calling the shots at Ferrari, deciding who, what and where must happen. It just decends into Anti-Alonso jibes because of one moment in his career that he has long since moved on from.

Perez "Alonso-Slayer", wonder how long it took you to think of that one? Again it is what a person wants to see, rather than what possibly will or won't happen.

I see with Alonso the exact kind of hate that people had when Schumacher was the face of Ferrari.

 

[Brogan]

I see with Alonso the exact kind of hate that people had when Schumacher was the face of Ferrari.

I don't see anyone on the thread stating they hate Alonso. In fact you're the only person who brings it up, repeatedly.

You need to take your blinkers off and read it again, without feeling personally slighted whilst doing so.

 

[cider_and_toast]

While I don't want this to fall into a slanging match, and want to keep this on topic, I read the comment on Perez as a major compliment on a young driver who is coming through the ranks being one of the few likely to have the pace to beat Alonso.

A driver picking who should be his team mate is absolutely nothing new in F1, Lauda did it, Prost did it, Senna did it, and in the future there will be many other drivers who will do it.

As far as equallity in teams go, imagine you are Alain Prost and you have just won the World Title for the third time, now imagine your team manager going to the F1 Authorities to appeal that your team mate should actually not have been disqualified and therefore should be back in the championship hunt.

In the 1978 world championship, not only did Ronnie Peterson not get the latest parts, he didn't even get the latest car !! For several races Andretti used the vastly superior Type 79 while Peterson used the previous years Type 78.

The OP has gone on to say that his point relates to Ferrari at the moment not Ferrari in the past. I do not see that as a criticism of Alonso but the way that Ferrari manage their drivers in relation to way that Mclaren manage theirs.

Pointless rant - view if you can be bothered

I am fed up to the back teath with all this Alonso, Hamilton bickering. It's been going on for 4 bloody years. Haven't we had enough of it yet for crying out loud. Any one who thinks that teams are hobbling their drivers or there is some sort of conspiricy to put one man ahead of another needs to go and sit in a caravan outside Area 51, wear a tinfoil hat and take up UFO spotting. This is Formula one, it's a sport. It's about winning and loosing, it's about getting the maximum from man and machine, it's about making a large amount of cash and above all it's about entertainment. I wish to christ that Ferrari would sign another British driver so that it would take some of the heat of that team. They are the Manchester Utd of F1, they have won so much in the past that we are bored with it, they are rich, they are ruthless, they don't give two toots about anything other than themselve, and they are one of the biggest names in motorsport, above all, we wish that our favorite team was as big as they were and it was our favourite driver taking the wins.

 

[Brogan]

The OP has gone on to say that his point relates to Ferrari at the moment not Ferrari in the past. I do not see that as a criticism of Alonso but the way that Ferrari manage their drivers in relation to way that Mclaren manage theirs.

Spot on c_a_t.

It's about the teams, not the drivers.

 

[RossTheBoss]

The difference in my opinion between a McLaren-style philosophy and a Ferrari-style philosophy (I say style in that many other teams have adopted one or the other tactics) is that McLaren don't have a "set" number one going a season but that the situation is dynamic and is decided as the season goes along. Ferrari currently (and in the past) have employed a Number 1 driver. Neither of these are right or wrong from what I can see. The flip side of the Felipe Massa argument is that he isn't pushing his teammate consistently. I seem to only remember one time last year (Germany) that Felipe was in front of Alonso on pace. Whether that is due to his injury is for another thread. My point is surely Ferrari of all people wouldn't cut their nose off (in this case the constructors championship) to spite their face (Alonso WDC) if they didn't think it was the best way forward. Ferrari have also shown they are willing to allow drivers to be promoted within the season (Felipe being pushed as No.1. above Kimi when Kimi lost his motivation after Lewis ploughed into the back of him in Montreal's pitlane).

And besides, Ferrari don't care about entertaining. They care about winning. And the teams put that before anything.

 

[Sarinaide]

This year is also a bad assesment, with the car still laking in competitive performance race to race, Ferrari also have the problem that one driver is getting the maximum out of his car and the other is plain right struggling with an underperforming car. In a perfect situation, Ferrari will be afforded the oportunity to let the drivers race, right now that oportunity is not forthcoming.

This weekend while it appears that Massa let Alonso by, I think all things considered it was the right move, and it was not a "Massa, Alonso is faster than you" message, rather a driver that has actually understood all to well what was going on. In this instance, if Massa parks it up the middle and causes Alonso to crash out, while he will be seen as a hero to the masses, in all things logical, the Ferrari board will see it as a moment of stupidity. Essentially the point I am making, Massa is well and truely out of the running while Alonso has a snowballs chance, it may also save Ferrari's face if Alonso was able to finish runner up.

Ferrari have to sort out the 2012 car from race 1 or again will be put into this situation which appears that one driver is being favoured.

 

[cider_and_toast]

And besides, Ferrari don't care about entertaining. They care about winning. And the teams put that before anything.

Absolutely.

 

[cider_and_toast]

while he will be seen as a hero to the masses

Was there any need to put that in your post? It's the sort of "entire world hates Alonso" thing that just drags the whole daft argument on and on and on.