Current Fernando Alonso

Suprised there's no thread (although I had one for his blogs), so i'll start off:

A double world championship vs Raikkonen and then Schumacher in 2005 and 2006 respectively elevated Alonso's status but, apparently, no one told his rookie teammate at his brand new team of a theoretical 'pecking order' the following season ... and the Spaniard was 'seen off' by the young Englishman, Hamilton, into two years of Wilderness while both Hamilton and an even younger Vettel began to make their mark through '08 and '09.

Arguably, Alonso was in the Top 3 of all the Formula One 'Aces' in the 2000s following Hakkinen's retirement - up there with either Schumacher/Raikkonen and, then, Raikkonen/Hamilton - and remains so in the early 2010s along with Hamilton/Vettel...with only Kubica knocking on the door until the Pole's horrible Rallying accident.

A question mark initially over 2004 during which Trulli lead him in the standing until the Italian fell out with ex-manager and team boss Flavio Briatore (Alonso's then business manager) under dubious circumstances after the French Grand Prix.

Another question mark is...Who has progressed more since the end of 2007: Hamilton or Alonso?

A fan. Then came the unfortunate blackmail allegations against McLaren boss Ron Dennis on the morning of the 2007 Hungarian GP which came to light at the highly costly FIA 'Spy-Gate' hearings before Spa...followed by the odour of the deliberate crashing of the Number 2 Renault car at Singapore in 2008 which lead to Alonso finishing 1st in the event and ended in the banning of Briatore and Pat Symmonds a year later.

2009 was a poor year with 'Nando's' mind likely on the prospect of Santander paving the way to better prospects at Maranello one year earlier.

2010 was a fresh start at Ferrari (who no longer had Schumacher walking through the premises regularly) but first half season mistakes ultimately cost him a title inspite of being infamously aided by a Team Orders switch w Massa at Hockenheim (which lead to more world-wide criticism).

Relatively fast, relatively consistent but prone to mistakes and a possible insecurity complex (*) based on wanting sole focus from a team and being only happy with a Number 2 in the other car running behind him. Anything else and it seemingly rattles him.

(*) This is my own personal opinion.

..and so to 2011...

He's underperformed only at Malaysia (hit Hamilton) and China (invisible while Massa challenged McLarens and Red Bulls) and, arguably, Canada...but has maximized his chances in the other 6 races culminating in the British GP win.

He said in his post-Monaco blog that 'Silverstone would be the WDC cut-off'...and so, after some major upgrades, the Ferrari looks a winner again. It might be too late for 2011 given Vettel's finishing rate...but the 2012 regs means they should keep the hammer down at Maranello.

He's signed on through to 2016...So hopes are high of a WDC at some juncture...but not yet.
 
It was never a question whether Alonso had a significant impact on Ferrari, or their relative performance to McLaren. What your chart does confirm is my point that Ferrari was nowhere near Force India and Sauber.

As to whether Ferrari was so much worse than RB, McL and Lt, you'd have to do a similar graph for their team mates, but the point now is, Alonso's claim of Ferrari being in the same group as Force India and Sauber is completely ludricous.
 
teabagyokel......Thanks for all the trouble you've gone to, we appear to have reached the same conclusion. My approach was somewhat simpler. Looking back at Alonso's season, he only started on the front row three times and on the second row twice. His average grid position for the entire season was 6th, which supports both our conclusions that it was mostly Alonso's racecraft that elevated him to 2nd in the championship. Yes there's always an element of luck at times, but that also includes bad luck. In hindsight being taken out at Spa probably cost him the title. Regardless of how you look at it Alonso's was a remarkable season and he has every reason to pat himself on the back.
mnmracer....... No mnmracer It was always a question of Alonso's impact on Ferrari. If you take the trouble to read my original posting on page 30 I think you'll find it, that is precisely why I entered this discussion. I agree with sushifiesta. Alonso's reference to being in the same group as Force India and Sauber was referring to Brazil only, not the last part of the season.
 
mnmracer....... No mnmracer It was always a question of Alonso's impact on Ferrari. If you take the trouble to read my original posting on page 30 I think you'll find it, that is precisely why I entered this discussion. I agree with sushifiesta. Alonso's reference to being in the same group as Force India and Sauber was referring to Brazil only, not the last part of the season.
Like I already said, it can not be Brazil as Ferrari was ahead of Lotus in Brazil and Sauber was nowhere near them. This factual data is available to anyone.
 
mnmracer......Alonso frequently referred to the "group of cars" he was in. He was never referring to exact positions during qualifying or the race, simply the cars he found himself battling with in lap times and during the race, including the mix he found himself in after pitstops. My average grid position for Alonso of 6th is accurate. If you look at the top group of cars as the front three rows and the second group the three rows behind them, it very much includes Williams, Sauber, and in Brazil, Force India. The relative positions of all these cars was changing constantly during the course of the season. Considering that, there is nothing exaggerated in Alonso's analysis of where his pace or lack of pace lay during the year.
 
Alonso had a great season. Yes he had the 3rd fastest car. However the fact that it never broke down should be remembered (Massa's didn't either). It wasn't solely Alonso's permances that got him to 2nd in the WDC.

The same cannot be of Vettel, Hamilton, Webber and Button. All of these drivers competing in the top quarter of the grid.

Alonso also had Massa in his back pocket from day one, Vettel had this to a much smaller extent and McLaren were impartial with their drivers.

Basically what I'm saying is although the Ferrari was 3rd fastest there were mitigating factors and the actual difference to the Red Bull and McLaren isn't as large as Alonso would have you believe.
 
Kewee - They weren't near Force India in Brazil, though... LOL

There were parts of last season when Ferrari were relatively close or behind Mercedes, Williams, Sauber or Force India, but not all at the same time.

To suggest Alonso did not outperform his machinery last year is wrong. He shouldn't have got within 3 points. Spa/Suzuka cost him the title, but only McLaren cock-ups gave them a chance to start...!
 
teabagyokel.....Alonso and Hulkenberg started 6th and 7th on the grid....:snigger: Hulkenberg was a real threat in Brazil until things went pear shaped for him.
no-FIAt-please.....I struggle to give Ferrari the third best car last season. There were times when Williams, Lotus and Sauber were very quick. Alonso having Massa in his back pocket didn't prove to be that helpful. He needed Massa to be taking points off his main rivals during the first third of the season.
 
Kewee I seem to remember Massa getting 2nd in Japan. In Korea he wasn't allowed to overtake Alonso. In Austin he was given a deliberate penalty after qualifying ahead of Alonso and had an impressive race. Finally in Brazil he did a great job of defending Alonso from oncoming attackers. Massa might have been crap for a lot of the season but he certainly aided Alonso's title bid.
 
To suggest Alonso did not outperform his machinery last year is wrong. He shouldn't have got within 3 points. Spa/Suzuka cost him the title, but only McLaren cock-ups gave them a chance to start...!

McLaren cock-ups cost him the title as well! Had Hamilton finished the Singapore GP, and everything else remaining the same, Alonso would be champion, an event not related to either competitor.
 
Kewee I seem to remember Massa getting 2nd in Japan. In Korea he wasn't allowed to overtake Alonso. In Austin he was given a deliberate penalty after qualifying ahead of Alonso and had an impressive race. Finally in Brazil he did a great job of defending Alonso from oncoming attackers. Massa might have been crap for a lot of the season but he certainly aided Alonso's title bid.
no-FIAt-please.....your so predictable....LOL.....Of course Massa had some very good races, no argument from me on that one, but unfortunately for Massa it was the crap part of his season that forced him to play back up to Alonso. The reason he wasn't allowed to overtake Alonso in Korea should have been obvious to all. Alonso was backing off just enough to take the stress out of his tyres to give him the best chance at attacking in the final laps. He could have put space between himself and Massa but that wasn't part of his strategy for a final push five or so laps later, hence the instructions to Massa not to overtake. All Massa needs to do to reverse their roles is drive himself into a stronger position than Alonso during the first half of the season and then maintain that strength during the closing stage of the championship. You should know by now I'm a great fan of Massa. He's an absolute gentleman which is probably his biggest weakness in such a cut throat sport.
 
Alonso's strategy as you call it wasn't particularly successful then was it. You can't have it both ways, Massa can't take points off rivals and stay behind Alonso.

The reason why Alonso had a large point gap over Massa isn't in doubt, he's a better driver. But it still doesn't change the fact that Alonso had significant help in his title bid where other drivers didn't. This is one of the factors that made Alonso's season appear to be more successful than it may actually have been.
 
No, Alonso's strategy in this case wasn't successful. That doesn't mean you shouldn't try what you and the team believe will give you the best chance.
We'll have to agree to disagree on your last point. I've always believed the only way a driver can truly help his teammate is to take points off their teams rivals but not his teammate. Massa was unable to do this until it was too late to help Alonso's title bid.
 
The only driver who Alonso needed points taken away from was Vettel. There was no chance that Massa would ever get near him and if you Kewee disagree with me I'll be coming banging on your door in four weeks or so. :D
 
Very true Bill Boddy. There were so many permutations last season. It's easy to blame Grosjean for taking Alonso out at Spa but in fact it's just as easy to blame Alonso himself for being unable to hold off Webber for the win at Silverstone. The seven points he lost there would have been more than enough at the end of the season. He will know that. Alonso has never had a problem accepting blame. At the end of 2007 he was asked whether the blow up in Hungary and the subsequent fall out at McLaren had cost him the title and he answered, "no I lost the title in the wet in Japan". Never a hint of blaming anyone but himself.
 
Kewee
Yet you have no problem ignoring that 'there were times when Williams, Lotus and Sauber were very quick' in regards to Red Bull. When not applying a double standard you'll find all this much less problemful ;)
 
mnmracer......I don't find this a problem at all, in fact you've just confirmed what I've been saying all along. Red Bull and Mclaren were not the only cars that were quicker than Ferrari at different times during the season. As you've just said Williams, Lotus and Sauber were also very quick which is why Alonso's average grid position for the season was 6th. This has nothing to do with double standards. If you have a look at the title of this thread you'll notice it's titled Fernando Alonso, which is why I and others have been discussing Alonso and his performance during the 2012 season. He just happens to drive a Ferrari which is why he and his car have become part of the discussion.
 
I guess I think it's just a shame that Fernando Alonso has so little respect for the followers of Formula One to make statements that are factually verifiably incorrect. I know that he would have a lot more fans if he did show that respect to the Formula One community.
 
For someone who dislikes Alonso so much you spend a lot of time on the Fernando thread. Maybe you should just spend your time elsewhere. :whistle:
 
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