Current Fernando Alonso

Suprised there's no thread (although I had one for his blogs), so i'll start off:

A double world championship vs Raikkonen and then Schumacher in 2005 and 2006 respectively elevated Alonso's status but, apparently, no one told his rookie teammate at his brand new team of a theoretical 'pecking order' the following season ... and the Spaniard was 'seen off' by the young Englishman, Hamilton, into two years of Wilderness while both Hamilton and an even younger Vettel began to make their mark through '08 and '09.

Arguably, Alonso was in the Top 3 of all the Formula One 'Aces' in the 2000s following Hakkinen's retirement - up there with either Schumacher/Raikkonen and, then, Raikkonen/Hamilton - and remains so in the early 2010s along with Hamilton/Vettel...with only Kubica knocking on the door until the Pole's horrible Rallying accident.

A question mark initially over 2004 during which Trulli lead him in the standing until the Italian fell out with ex-manager and team boss Flavio Briatore (Alonso's then business manager) under dubious circumstances after the French Grand Prix.

Another question mark is...Who has progressed more since the end of 2007: Hamilton or Alonso?

A fan. Then came the unfortunate blackmail allegations against McLaren boss Ron Dennis on the morning of the 2007 Hungarian GP which came to light at the highly costly FIA 'Spy-Gate' hearings before Spa...followed by the odour of the deliberate crashing of the Number 2 Renault car at Singapore in 2008 which lead to Alonso finishing 1st in the event and ended in the banning of Briatore and Pat Symmonds a year later.

2009 was a poor year with 'Nando's' mind likely on the prospect of Santander paving the way to better prospects at Maranello one year earlier.

2010 was a fresh start at Ferrari (who no longer had Schumacher walking through the premises regularly) but first half season mistakes ultimately cost him a title inspite of being infamously aided by a Team Orders switch w Massa at Hockenheim (which lead to more world-wide criticism).

Relatively fast, relatively consistent but prone to mistakes and a possible insecurity complex (*) based on wanting sole focus from a team and being only happy with a Number 2 in the other car running behind him. Anything else and it seemingly rattles him.

(*) This is my own personal opinion.

..and so to 2011...

He's underperformed only at Malaysia (hit Hamilton) and China (invisible while Massa challenged McLarens and Red Bulls) and, arguably, Canada...but has maximized his chances in the other 6 races culminating in the British GP win.

He said in his post-Monaco blog that 'Silverstone would be the WDC cut-off'...and so, after some major upgrades, the Ferrari looks a winner again. It might be too late for 2011 given Vettel's finishing rate...but the 2012 regs means they should keep the hammer down at Maranello.

He's signed on through to 2016...So hopes are high of a WDC at some juncture...but not yet.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

Ray, I don't think you can reasonably claim Fernando has an insecurity complex...He knows he is fast, he knows what he can do and I don't think he cares what anyone thinks about him...It appears as if he's able to keep his emotions in check now, instead of getting upset when something doesn't go according to plan.

It was an opinion (I even put an asterix beside it in the OP). I base the opinion on the fact that he couldn't handle Hamilton - a driver of equal ability - at McLaren...and he also, it is said by reporters, vetoed Kubica joining Ferrari. Ferrari and others were rating Kubica.

If Alonso was so secure with himself, he'd take on anyone. But he ran from Hamilton and doesn't want to partner him again. He didn't want to partner Kubica and i'm willing to bet he won't want Vettel at Ferrari any time soon.

Look at Senna. Senna went to McLaren in 1988 to take on Prost who'd won two WDCs for McLaren. Mano - a - Mano.

Prost himself went to take on Lauda at McLaren in 1984 and then to take on Mansell at Ferrari in 1990.

Alonso is only happy when a Number 2 is in the other car and behind him. Alonso is fine now because Massa hasn't been in front of him for a race win this year. What if that happens?

 

[Sarinaide]

Again it is all speculative, that Alonso refuses to drive with an aptly talented number 2, and would peoples perceptions of Massa be different if he managed to win in 2007(WDC), that said Massa is a heck of a lot better than some other said number 2's around.

We then only have to look at RBR and McLaren and the problems with Webber and Hamilton respectively, where they are in the case of Mark not willing to be a number 2 and Lewis not happy that the number 2 is beating him, so that said I think while it is speculative any talk of Alonso deciding who and who not to drive with should be moot, it is a competitive industry everyone wants to win and nobody wants to lose, and if you are not willing to accept and move on you find yourself out of F1 indefinately.

And the point on Ferrari was that over the last season and now, they have not been the best car out right either the second or joint second, and this season the third best car on the grid, Sebs issues with reliability at Bahrain and Melbourne was the reason Massa/Alonso and Ferrari had rather distorted placings, but far from this great car you seem to be pressing for.

 

[Sarinaide]

Seen the Fiat ad now,........ouch. Ferrari insisting that he must do this kind of PR is really horrid to do to any person though I understand the reasons

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

And the point on Ferrari was that over the last season and now, they have not been the best car out right either the second or joint second, and this season the third best car on the grid, Sebs issues with reliability at Bahrain and Melbourne was the reason Massa/Alonso and Ferrari had rather distorted placings, but far from this great car you seem to be pressing for.

It's hard to have a debate with you when you continue to under-state how good the Ferrari was in relation to most of the 2010 grid. Yes, it's clear that the RB6 was superior, albeit with a worse Renault engine than Ferrari's and certainly a lot worse mechanical reliability (which is a very important element of a car)...but the Ferrari was either joint second best or out-right second best over 2010 on average. There was indeed a low period vs McLarens in the 2nd Quarter...but then Maranello got it going again except that Massa completely underperformed after getting gutted psycologically at Hockenheim at a time when the Ferrari came good. McLaren got it wrong after Monza last year and RBR and Ferrari's were 1-2 right through to Brazil. At Abu Dhabi McLaren were back in the mix.

The only reason why McLaren beat Ferrari to 2nd in the WCC was because Button was much more consistent than Massa. Alonso cost them some points in the 1st half...while Massa was completely useless after making a mockery of himself by moving over at Hockenheim.

Cheers.

 

[Sarinaide]

I was merely remarking to this impression that you believed that Ferrari ought to have won every race in 2010 with an undisputed favourite car when that was hardly the case. Factoring in all the mechanical failures and odd lower than expected finish, Ferrari may have been a good car but hardly championship material.

I guess Ferrari really were made to look a lot better than it actually was with Alonso's performances in the second half, and the fact that DRS and KERS wasn't around, so racing was much a precession. I will still say that Ferrari are in the position they are because of Alonso, a driver that can take every ounce of performance out of the tools, without him 2010 would have decended into the mire, and the achievements of 2011 and the podiums achieved with what has for the most part been a bad car.

 

[KekeTheKing]

for the most part been a bad car.

There are 20 drivers out there that would laugh at this notion.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

Again it is all speculative, that Alonso refuses to drive with an aptly talented number 2, and would peoples perceptions of Massa be different if he managed to win ... (WDC), that said Massa is a heck of a lot better than some other said number 2's around.

I don't think Massa's a heck of a lot better than Button or Webber.

If i'm to be honest, I have to say that - at his height from mid-08 to mid-09 - Massa was being flattered by Ferrari's and Raikkonen's indifference to each other and also by having a meddling Schumacher in his camp. Schumacher wasn't a Raikkonen fan.

Lastly, Button went to McLaren to take on Hamilton. Hamilton said he'd pair-up with Alonso again. Alonso ran away from Hamilton and wouldn't be interested in teaming up with him again. So these ideas regarding Alonso's teammate preferences are not merely opinions but fact. Massa is a mere afterthought at Ferrari, a team which has significant enough resourses to field two Top Tier drivers.

 

[Sarinaide]

There are 20 drivers out there that would laugh at this notion.

I guess what is bad to some, is good to others, but if you accept the position that Ferrari should be competing for championships, well then yes it is spot on despite the masses amusement.

I guess in football terms it would equate to Liverpool or Arsenal not winning trophies when they are somewhat expected to make a challenge, yet everyone down the league or divisions would nevertheless love to be in their positions.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

I was merely remarking to this impression that you believed that Ferrari ought to have won every race in 2010...

...I had no such impression. Where have I written so? You said the 2010 Ferrari was "pants". I've been pretty level and unbiased on this one, my friend. Cheers.

 

[KekeTheKing]

In Formula One terms the F150 cannot be considered "BAD". Simple as. They have looked bad compared to the RB7 at times, but who hasn't?

You and Ray can carry on now.

 

[Sarinaide]

I don't think Massa's a heck of a lot better than Button or Webber.

If i'm to be honest, I have to say that - at his height from mid-08 to mid-09 - Massa was being flattered by Ferrari's and Raikkonen's indifference to each other and also by having a meddling Schumacher in his camp. Schumacher wasn't a Raikkonen fan.

Lastly, Button went to McLaren to take on Hamilton. Hamilton said he'd pair-up with Alonso again. Alonso ran away from Hamilton and wouldn't be interested in teaming up with him again. So these ideas regarding Alonso's teammate preferences are not merely opinions but fact. Massa is a mere afterthought at Ferrari, a team which has significant enough resourses to field two Top Tier drivers.

I just get the feeling that you seem to have an opinon of Alonso being a quiter, yet last season and by and large this season suggests contrary. I haven't heard any or read any personal statements from Alonso that suggests that he is unwilling to drive with A calibre drivers, if I recall he did say he would love to race in the same team as Kubica.

As for the "running from Hamilton" part, more like "getting the heck out" of a very bad situation where a team was hell bent on wrecking him. Lewis found out last season and most likely this season to, that Alonso will have no quelms in racing him.

Lastly I would say that Massa is probably on a par, if not on results better than Mark Webber, but probably behind Button when you consider number two's, that is of cause if you accept Button as a number two driver which in itself is odd.

...I had no such impression. Where have I written so? You said the 2010 Ferrari was "pants". I've been pretty level and unbiased on this one, my friend. Cheers.

http://www.formula1.com/results/team/

The standings seem to suggest the point that, for a team expected to compete they were pretty miles off second placed McLaren and need not say how far behind RBR, so despite Alonso's performances RB and / or McLaren were getting much better net points per race even when not winning.

Again I equate it to a major team falling so far behind the contending pack with all their flaws, in short pants. But I guess they were better than Mercedes, Renault, Sauber, Torro Rosso, Force India and the rest of the cannon fodder.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

I just get the feeling that you seem to have an opinon of Alonso being a quiter...

You continue to put words in my mouth. I actually think Alonso is an Ace...a Top 3 driver. I wrote so in the OP (go look at it again...post #1 of this thread.)

I'm merely suggesting Alonso prefers to have a Number 2 in the other car (like Fisichella, Piquet Jr, Grosjean, Massa) and has had issues when they're ahead (like Massa was in Australia and Germany in 2010). Trulli was beating him at Renault in 2004 until Trulli was sacked...and then look at what happened when Hamilton refused to move over for him at Indy in 2007. Hamilton unhinged Alonso mentally in 2007 and also unhinged him from a top seat for two years.

 

[RasputinLives]

Look at Senna. Senna went to McLaren in 1988 to take on Prost who'd won two WDCs for McLaren. Mano - a - Mano.

Prost himself went to take on Lauda at McLaren in 1984 and then to take on Mansell at Ferrari in 1990.

Once again Ray you are very selective with your facts when trying to prove a point. Senna went to Mclaren as a number 2 driver intent on toppling the team leader - he was not a world champion or rated as one of the best in the world at this point - so it wasn't 2 greats taking each other on. By this point in his career Senna had already made sure Lotus would not take on Derek Warwick as he saw him as too much of a threat. After Prost left Senna then made sure Berger(and those that came after him) were very much number 2 status just like Alonso is with Massa.

As for Prost - Prost left Mclaren because he was upset that he'd been ousted as team fave by Senna (much like Alonso and Hamilton) he then moved to Ferrari where as you say he 'took him on' man to man which is absolute rubbish as Mansell was cleary relegated to number 2 status hence why he left. Then after his temper tantrum whenre he left Ferrari he came back to Williams and refused Mansell as a team-mate and the following year Senna.

We've now discovered Vettel clearly has a number one status where Webber is concerned as we all heard Red Bull tell Mark to not overtake. Hamilton in the past has had Kovi move over for him. Massa has both been the driver to move over and the driver who's had someone to move over even your precious Kimi would not have won the title without Massa letting him past. So lets not believe the media hype about Fernando shall we? because where the moral highground is concerned nobody has a leg to stand on.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

Once again Ray you are very selective with your facts when trying to prove a point. Senna went to Mclaren as a number 2 driver intent on toppling the team leader - he was not a world champion or rated as one of the best in the world at this point - so it wasn't 2 greats taking each other on.

Senna was not a Number 2 driver when he went to McLaren. He was a Number 1 driver who took Honda with him to McLaren. Did you actually see the races in 1984, 1985, 1986 and 1987?

Senna was being rated as a Number 1 driver as early as 1985. He destroyed de Angelis in 1985 and de Angelis had always had the measure of Mansell in their years at Lotus.

Even before Senna put his bum in a McLaren he was being seen as superior to both Mansell and Piquet. In 1988 Piquet took over Senna's seat at Camel Lotus Honda and, when benchmarked against Nakajima, Honda knew what an immense talent Senna really was.

Senna was a firm Number 1 when Ron Dennis signed him. Anyone on here who watched Grand Prix racing in the Mid 1980s will confirm this.

You're right, though, that Senna went to McLaren to win championships and dismantle Prost...but I can't take the rest of your post seriously enough after reading the first sentence.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

Rasputin my old friend, I simply don't agree with you that Senna was a Number 2 going into a McLaren contract. He didn't have 2 WDCs to his name but he was viewed as a Number 1.

Besides, this is an Alonso thread...and (a pre-accident) Kubica going to Ferrari for 2011 would've been viewed as Kubica being a Number 1 going to Ferrari as a co-equal Number 1.

 

[Sarinaide]

"Unhinged him" Thats a bit emotive considering Hamilton did not actually beat Alonso, he may have been the spark for the fire, but I can assure you that McLaren made sure that ship was sunk by treating Alonso as second rate, he left to go to Renault, hardly the most aspiring move around.

To suggest that Alonso picked Pique Jnr, Grosjean as team mates is absolutely maddening, and he didn't pick Massa as a co-driver at Ferrari considering Massa was already there.

If we are take the assumption that Alonso flees from the nearest sight of a challenger then by now he would be out of Formula 1, and if it is the immediate situation then he would have said, "I am packing it in for 2011, see you in 2012".

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

"Unhinged him" Thats a bit emotive considering Hamilton did not actually beat Alonso, he may have been the spark for the fire, but I can assure you that McLaren made sure that ship was sunk by treating Alonso as second rate.

That's my reading of what happened and it is my opinion. In my opinion Hamilton's unforseen pace as a rookie unhinged Alonso. Alonso didn't see it coming, did he?

And when McLaren refused to subjugate Hamilton to him, Alonso lost it. And he lost it at Hungary, especially on that Sunday morning when he allegedly blackmailed Ron Dennis with emails and texts. The revelation of those texts and emails led to a $100 Million fine to McLaren...so, did you honestly expect Alonso to be treated like a god at McLaren thereafter?

You blackmail your employer - with it ending in a huge fine - and see what happens to you, Sarinaide.

It's not as if Alonso was dominating rookie Hamilton going into Hungary to warrant the young English driver's subjugation. Forensic investigation would reveal that Alonso's car was prepared equally as well as Hamilton's thereafter. Even strategy wise each was treated equally. You only need to see what a shoddy job McLaren did on tyre strategy with Hamilton at China and the technical/software glitch that occured on Lewis' car at Brazil to see that Nando was hardly being given the shorter end of the stick following that huge fine.

 

[MCLS]

he left to go to Renault, hardly the most aspiring move around..

Not to mention the only move around, and the only place where he was bound to get 100% support from his team and he would be completely in charge. Crashgate embodies that......

 

[Cookinflatsix]

"Unhinged him" Thats a bit emotive considering Hamilton did not actually beat Alonso,
Snip/
If we are take the assumption that Alonso flees from the nearest sight of a challenger then by now he would be out of Formula 1, and if it is the immediate situation then he would have said, "I am packing it in for 2011, see you in 2012".

Blown away, unhinged etc
I think these expressions are fair metaphors for what happened in 2007
Alonso with his 2xWC, having been groomed by FB as the MS heir arrives at McLaren expecting a teammate he has the measure of
An unknown rookie then out qualifies him, and beats him to second place in the championship
You don't have to be a psychologist to understand how the current alpha on the grid is going to react, fight or flight
If the recent claims in a book that he tried to blackmail Ron into sabotaging Lewis' car is true then he tried to fight on track, off track and finally fled

Unfortunate year for one with so much talent and would explain the Renault years and the reported vetoing of competitive teammates

To be fair to Alonso, many drivers would have imploded similarly faced with a cocky blisteringly quick rookie

 

[teabagyokel]

A few general points of order here. 2007 is an extremely emotive subject and it'd be nice if we could have a bit of respect about it.

Secondly, Senna and Prost's contractual situation in 1988 is at best tangential discussion and at worst completely irrelevant. Any more on that will be deleted.

Thirdly, the site has opened up this section despite fears we would have tit-for-tat my driver vs your driver posts. Lets not prove the doubters right.