EBD & Engine Mapping questions and answers

[jez101]

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2011/06/what-difference-will-off-throttle-diffuser-ban-make/

Engineers I have spoken to suggest that the real differentiator for Red Bull in qualifying is its very powerful DRS rear wing, which can be used on qualifying laps in corners where other teams simply cannot use it, as the car would become unstable.

Here is something that is not quite adding up for me...

The EBD ban from Silverstone is on off the throttle blowing, right? You are still going to have the EBD effect on throttle.

The article talks of RBRs advantage coming from their ability to use DRS in corners where other teams can't.

You never see DRS used off throttle, do you?

If what JA says is true about where RBRs advantage comes from (DRS), then the off throttle ban is going to make no difference to RBRs advantage, is it? Might it even hurt other teams whose advantage seems to be under braking (McLaren?)

It seems to me that the engine mapping curveball that has just been thrown is there to address gratituitous on throttle blowing too, which would hurt Red Bull and remove their ability to DRS more than others, doing much more than the off throttle ban.

Unless of course they can plug a computer in during the first pitstop. I wonder how quickly that would be banned if they tried it...?

 

[Bushi]

Wow, the FIA really wants to stop the Bulls performance. Still in my eyes counterfeiting the competition.

 

[snowy]

The FIA are not being particularly subtle with their attempts to slow RBR down. Why don't they just do what they do with touring cars and slap an extra twenty-five kilos on them and be done with.

If as some people believe RBR doesn't lose out particularly, Charlie is going to have egg on his face...

So nothing new there then.

 

[FB]

It does all depend on how much of an additional advantage the Red Bull EBD gives compared to the McLaren and Ferrari. I think the Red Bull is probably a more efficient package than both of the other front running cars and can't see this change dropping them behind the others. Might bring them all a bit closer though which will be good.

 

[sportsman]

There is one other point that may have some bearing on this issue.
So far this season Red Bull have only run their KERS systems in a limited capacity and even then it has suffered due to overheating.
The Red Bull EBD floor only allowed them to use a battery that had only 60% of the availble capacity allowed.It also was a factor in their KERS overheating problems.
Red Bull run the Magnetti Marelli KERS sysytem as do Renault and several other teams.
I would expect that now Red Bull will uprate their KERS packaging and without the blown floor constraints this may alleviate their system overheating problems and it will be be available for the entire race

 

[tranquility2k9]

What im wondering is that I thought drivers were always fiddling with engine modes using buttons on their steering wheel during the race? The commentators always refer to how they think Red Bull can "turn their engine up" on the lap directly before or after a pit stop to try and keep or gain position. Are these "engine modes" they refer to, different to the actual "engine mapping"? I'm assuming the modes are more to do with how aggressively the engine is used and thus how much fuel is burnt, rather than more exotic modifications such as off-throttle ignition retarding?

Another possibility is that teams may have a maximum of 2 or 3 different engine modes (accessible via the buttons on the steering wheel) for the race and would therefore usually change the actual function of those modes between Quali and the Race. With this new regulation, maybe the only way they could run their normal qualifying engine maps, would be to sacrifice one of the usual race engine modes?

Anyone have any idea on this whole subject and whether the engine modes drivers change on their steering wheel actually change the mapping?

 

[Theo_55]

A change of engine mapping could perhaps be painfully slow during the race if they have to remove engine covers to achieve it, however, if a change can be made by changing the steering wheel at the first pitstop, this would not take more than the normal pitstop time, this could be between 10 and 16 laps into the race which is quite enough time to destroy an engine.

This could be the more clever of the changes between the next two races.

 

[tranquility2k9]

They can plug in a laptop via th SECU plug slot. Here is a picture of McLaren's MP4-26 SECU plug:-

http://yfrog.com/gyn71kij

You can see it under the side pod. What is an unknown is even if you can plug it in during a pitstop, how long is it likely to take to change the engine maps. It may take a few minutes even to reconfigure the maps. Of course teams could work on a way of doing this quickly, but it is likely that it may be impossible to achieve it in a matter of seconds.

Effectively, I think the FIA have brought in this regulation so that teams have to setup their engine maps for the race before qualifying and run the same cars during both.

 

[Bill Boddy]

...
Anyone have any idea on this whole subject and whether the engine modes drivers change on their steering wheel actually change the mapping?

The engine is controlled by the ECU (Engine Control Unit), this unit a standard device which is allocated to the teams by the FIA. However since all engines are not equal their particular characteristics are set by data downloaded into the ECU by the team using it. They are allowed to download a number of differing setups, as far as I know these go into the ECU and are called up from the steering wheel which effectively says use setup number #.

So they could remove the engine covers and change the ECU, but I suspect that they are not located in a very convenient position. If I am correct that the maps are resident in the ECU changing the steering would have no effect.

For "modes" read "maps".

 

[tranquility2k9]

Thanks for that insight Bill. You are right that they all use standard ECU's which are actually built and supplied by McLaren.

If you see my post above, to change the ECU they need to plug a cable into the SECU (Standard Electronic Control Unit) plug socket. How long this would take though, I have no idea.

If you are right in what you say then effectively, teams would use a different set of maps for qualifying and the race. But if they just used their race modes and their vital qualifying mode then they could still get around this. I think there must be more to it than that otherwise teams could just have their extreme qualifying mode as one of the options during the race, having to sacrifice another mode they'd usually have. I think I remember hearing they have up to 4 different modes during the race.

I still think these modes they can change on the steering wheel is more to do with the severity of fuel consumption and engine usage, rather than actually changing how much the ignition is retarded off-throttle for example. If that were the case then that could only be changed via plugging a computer into the SECU plug socket.

An example of what I mean is, lets say Red Bull use 80% off-throttle exhaust flow during qualifying, but then only 20% during the race. I think this is something that cannot be changed via the steering wheel. Via the steering wheel, you can just change how aggressively the engine is ran in terms of performance, I think.

 

[Road of Bones]

Given that the ECU is a standard unit used by all teams & sealed by the FIA, I imagine it would be fairly difficult for a team to circumvent the new EDB rules by having different race/quali maps applied to the steering wheel selector switch?

I am assuming that this is why the FIA have brought in this new rule about quali/race engine maps. It must be fairly straightforward for the scrutineers to plug into the ECU and detect what maps have been used during the race weekend.

 

[sobriety]

What makes everyone think that Redbull's ultra aggressive quali map isn't the same map as their 'we need some quick laps around a pit stop' map?

 

[tranquility2k9]

What makes everyone think that Redbull's ultra aggressive quali map isn't the same map as their 'we need some quick laps around a pit stop' map?

That's what im wondering. Also the map they seem to use at the start of the race when they pull away super quickly for the first few laps.

 

[Brogan]

This is getting off topic for what is a race thread, but an engine map is different from adjusting the mixture or turning up the max revs using the buttons on the steering wheel.

The engine map is held in the ECU and that is programmed using a laptop.

 

[Theo_55]

That's what im wondering. Also the map they seem to use at the start of the race when they pull away super quickly for the first few laps.

The mapping Red Bull uses at the start of the race could be aggressive in terms of the use of fuel to the blown diffuser, if this map runs the engine at an extreme temperature, it won't be suitable for the first few laps of a race as it could possibly destroy the engine.

 

[sportsman]

Currently all the teams can get about six different engine map into the SECU.They use a launch map for the start and other maps for fuel saving, maximum power and various other modes.These are all controlled by the driver via the steering wheel.
But the engine mapping is a bit of a red herring.This is the killer blow.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/92500
"The headline changes for the Silverstone GP are as follows: when the driver lifts his foot fully off the throttle pedal, then the ECU maps must be set up so that the engine [to all intents and purposes] closes the throttle - previously it was possible to configure the engine maps to leave the throttle open and reduce the engine power by other means.
"Furthermore, when the driver lifts fully off the throttle, the ECU maps must be configured to cut off the fuel supply to the engine – this is intended to prevent so called 'hot blowing' where the energy of the exhaust gas is increased by combustion."

 

[Slyboogy]

Does that not mean we wont hear those cool weird engine noises under braking?

 

[tranquility2k9]

This is getting off topic for what is a race thread, but an engine map is different from adjusting the mixture or turning up the max revs using the buttons on the steering wheel.

The engine map is held in the ECU and that is programmed using a laptop.

That really makes sense, thanks for that post. I think I was right in my interpretation of the difference between the steering wheel settings and the actual engine mapping inside the ECU.

 

[sportsman]

http://www.formula1.com/news/features/2008/10/8576.html Toyota’s senior general manager engine Luca Marmorini reveals: "There are two switches for engine control on the steering wheel. In particular one allows the driver to change the engine map, allowing him to choose one of several options - each one corresponds to a different fuelling of the engine. Typically number one is the performance fuelling map, and he has then four other possible maps where he can save fuel during the lap. Sometimes it's very important to save fuel for delaying a pit stop, for example."

 

[cynical old Hector]

Maybe they should now with the new directive from the FIA I posted above.

There is now no point in having a special EBD floor if the engine mapping can't be used anyway.

Quite, the whole point of having a more aggressive engine map ( for qualifying) is solely to supply the off throttle blown diffuser.So after Valencia, the ban on different engine maps becomes quite redundant surely ?

I can only conclude that the FIA are banning different engine maps (ahead of Silverstone) to nullify a certain team's qualifying advantage.The FIA realised that the off throttle diffuser ban would take a while to implement, but as a "quick fix" before that, the mapping ban will do very nicely ?

PS: Snowy, am a McLaren fan but I do have mixed feelings about all these mid season rule chances ( and who they are aimed at).Call me cynical..........