Poll Does Felipe Massa deserve his 2012 seat at Ferrari?
- Thread starter tranquility2k9
- Start date
To be fair to Felipe, I don't suppose for a second that he saw his team's behaviour swinging so determinedly towards Alonso...
To be fair to Ferrari, after the way Felipe developed with Schui as the no. 1 driver it must be a surprise how much his treatment is effecting Felipe's full race performance.
I put the blame at Ferrari's door, I don't think Alonso is a Schumacher, Michael worked hard with Felipe to round off his rough edges, and it worked, I can't see Fernando working with his teammate in that way.
Felipe obviously no longer copes in the no. 2 role, but I have to say (again) Felipe just doesn't look like he is enjoying himself anymore, and F1 is not a good place to be if you're not happy.
To be fair to Ferrari, after the way Felipe developed with Schui as the no. 1 driver it must be a surprise how much his treatment is effecting Felipe's full race performance.
I put the blame at Ferrari's door, I don't think Alonso is a Schumacher, Michael worked hard with Felipe to round off his rough edges, and it worked, I can't see Fernando working with his teammate in that way.
Felipe obviously no longer copes in the no. 2 role, but I have to say (again) Felipe just doesn't look like he is enjoying himself anymore, and F1 is not a good place to be if you're not happy.
Il_leone
World Champion
------------------------
Ferrari is a political madhouse like Italian politics. When everyone is going well the factions are kept at bay as the results are being delivered on track
When results are not delivered on track the factions within Ferrari come out with their own agenda
Massa was part the Todt/Brawn/Byrne/Schumacher and Stepney family who delivered the most successful Ferrari period...
But it was multinational away from the traditional run by Italians. Todt after being employed by Luca was a clever politician himself and able to justify some of his team decisions like hiring Massa..but as soon as Schumacher started waning , Luca took matters into his own hand and decided how he should run the team like
Already hiring Raikkonen back in 2005 and make it clear to Schumi he would be no longer No 1
Also not promoting Ross BRawn to be team principal and giving it to Domenicali
When Raikkonen was not good enough he hired Alonso who no doubt needs to prove something as Luca has already made his mind up Vettel is next
Massa am afraid without all the protection and allies in Schumacher/ Todt and BRawn is fighting a lost cause where its who you know at Ferrari that gives you power. Sadly for Massa , Alonso along with his backers have more clout
I don't think people will remember he actually lead the world championship after 3 rounds last year and would surely have been replaced by Kubica as many Ferrari insiders would like
But really Massa should join another team to prove he is capable of beating ALonso
He is in no way capable of beating Alonso, that's just not possible, I mean come on, he has not been able to defeat him in 2 seasons in the same car. What makes you think he will defeat Alonso by joining an inferior team (he is not to join Red Bull or McLaren, is he?)?
I have stated this many times and starting to sound like a really stupid fanboy, but it's a point many disregard. Is that Massa would have been less than a win behind to Alonso if you give him the Hockenheim win, and before Hockenheim he had a string of 3 bad races which he really should have scored points but through no fault of his own (bar one me thinks) he scored none.
Canada the incident with Liuzzi where their cars just kept hitting each other, he was then on for at least 8th place but then Schumacher chopped him and he needed a new front wing. Valencia, he had to queue behind Alonso, losing massive amount of time due to queing and Ferrari's ill timed pitstop. Silverstone, puncture in the first lap after Alonso collided with him, and for some odd reason pitted a one more time extra (bar the puncture).
Of course Alonso had some poor results too, but most of them in the first half of the season where of his own doing, unlike Massa.
He has also shown glimpses of himself this season I think, that being in China, and in Canada (before the mobile chicane Karthikeyan putting him onto the wet line causing him to crash) and ever since Ferrari have called off the title battle, he's been much closer to Alonso. Above that, he's had the worst pit strategies and pitstops this season.
I am damn sure there is still some of the "old Felipe" in him, it's just the psychological harm that his own team have inflicted on him. I really do fell for the guy.
And sorry if I have come across as a fanboy, but I analyse all of the drivers before I come to a judgement, and to say Massa has "under-performed in the past two seasons" I feel is an injustice as there is more to what meets the eye.
Il_leone
World Champion
He managed to beat Alonso in an equally competitive car in 2006-2007 .
He may not beat Alonso in an inferior car but at least he has pride and dignity back
2006 WDC Alonso, Massa 3rd.
2007 Alonso 3rd, Massa 4th.
Or am I missing something?
2007 Alonso 3rd, Massa 4th.
Or am I missing something?
I think he's talking about that he's beat him more times than once in general in a season where they both had equal to competitive cars, and because of this he is no slouch.
He might have been less than a win behind in 2010 (if you give him Hockenheim) but this year Alonso has 227 points and Massa 98. Need I say anymore?
I have already stated something on that situation.
And my post above was more to do with the fact that people say that he has been "under-performing for 2 seasons straight"...
Numbers don't lie though, and to me they say Alonso's been over twice the driver Massa has this season.
I will admit the gap was closer last year than it is this year but nonetheless Massa still isn't performing to a satisfactory level in that Ferrari.
I will admit the gap was closer last year than it is this year but nonetheless Massa still isn't performing to a satisfactory level in that Ferrari.
Haven't disagreed with that at all, my first post in this thread pointed that out....
But then again, there's a fair few drivers in the top teams not performing to a "satisfactory level"
Yeah even though I like him, Webber should be replaced by Alguersuari in my book, probably by Buemi in your book
If it was up to me, I would propose my insane idea to Bernie Ecclestone, to clone 23 Buemi's and replace them with the current non-Buemi drivers, then we would have a "herd of Moose's" driving in F1.
*Goes on to the phone to Bernie*
He said "No"
I think Webber really should be out if he doesn't perform next season, it clogs up the Red Bull driver programme, and the current two Toro Rosso drivers should be in his seat, Alguersuari to Red Bull, and Buemi to Ferrari.
I put no. I think that if the Ferrari was in a place to win the WDC with Alonso, Massa is too far off the pace to assist in the WCC, as seen both last year and this. For whatever reason, and I think it is deeper than Germany 2010, I think Massa is not the prospect he used to be. He seems to be fragile, for want of a better term.
Rumour is that Nico Rosberg has been seen at Maranello recently. That could be interesting....
Rumour is that Nico Rosberg has been seen at Maranello recently. That could be interesting....
For me, the ideal would be for Rosberg to take the second Ferarri next year. It would shake up the driver market and stop next year being a threepeat of 2010 and 2011 in the top 8 cars.
If Nico can't or won't move, then perhaps Heikki Kovaleinen deserves a mention as an alternative?
If I was Luca, aiming to win the WDC and WCC next year, my shopping list would look like this (alonside Alonso)
1. Vettel
2. Button
3. Rosberg
4. Webber
5. Hamilton 
6. Kovaleinen
7. Petrov
8. Perez
9. Algersuari
10. Sutil
11. Buemi
12. Bruno Senna
...or Massa
If Nico can't or won't move, then perhaps Heikki Kovaleinen deserves a mention as an alternative?
If I was Luca, aiming to win the WDC and WCC next year, my shopping list would look like this (alonside Alonso)
1. Vettel
3. Rosberg
4. Webber
6. Kovaleinen
7. Petrov
8. Perez
9. Algersuari
10. Sutil
11. Buemi
12. Bruno Senna
...or Massa
One of the reasons Massa has been so far behind Alonson this year is that FA has been getting all of the latest modifications well before Massa. That should be kept in mind when comparing the two.
I don't think pairing Vettel with Alonso would go over too well. When Seb started to sweep the floor with FA, Alonso would revert to his (in)famous "sulk and scheme" mode.
Massa isn't that good a driver - never was, in my book - but he's a known quantity, and could get it on the podium if Fernando was winning races. Many of the proposed replacements are of uncertain or doubtful ability at the present time. So overall I don't think he 'deserves' it, but from Ferrari's perspective he should keep it anyway.
Plus, I'm not sure it would be a great idea for Nico at all.
Plus, I'm not sure it would be a great idea for Nico at all.
Given the machinery available, has Massa been any worse at Ferrari than, for instance, Webber has at Red Bull?
Surely if Ferrari think he deserves a seat in their car then he does, and that's the end of it.
Surely if Ferrari think he deserves a seat in their car then he does, and that's the end of it.
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