Don't worry Bro. You're not on your own, buddy. I'm with you on this one for the meantime.
Technical Are Red Bull using exhaust gasses to heat the rear tyres?
- Thread starter tranquility2k9
- Start date
Don't worry Bro. You're not on your own, buddy. I'm with you on this one for the meantime.
I don't think you can dismiss the findings of a world renowned tyre manufacturer out hand like that, especially after such a well publicised incident with reputations and safety on the line. Pirelli reached this conclusion with Redbull and I trust that they would've carried out a detailed examination on the remaining rubber, coupled with video evidence and telemtry. More likely they would've produced some hard evidence and had their findings independently verified for Redbull to accept. We already know Redbull have been running extreme camber angles against Pirelli's advice and the situation reached boiling point at Spa. I think to say that they haven't found any evidence is stretching it too far. I would also argue that there are more than four likely causes of instantaneous tyre deflation.
.
Ay, and there's the rub. If they have no evidence for anything, then they have no evidence for everything. Reminds me a lot of the old quote regarding Ferrari's unwillingness to admit to technical failures. I forget the driver and location, but it sounds a lot like something Chris Amon might have said. When questioned about the reported "electrical problems" the pilot replied something to the effect that "I don't know about that, but when the con rod came though the side of the block it might have taken out the distributor". Feel free to correct that as I'd love to be reminded of the real quote. This out of hand dismissal of something that they will have found very difficult to prove one way or the other smacks of reputation preservation to me.
Fenderman
Rooters Reporter
Sometimes I get a kick out of the various theories and ideas bouncing around. Other times I wait for some basic reality to come shining through and I hold back thinking I don't want to be the smart arse all the time. In the end, I just crack and have to say something that I took for granted would be obvious to everyone. This is one of those times.
Pirelli supply the tyres to the entire F1 grid. They are also the sole tyre supplier to other top flight auto' and motorcycle racing formulae. It would be an absolute commercial disaster for them to withhold information about the cause of a failure of one of their products. The potential for bad PR is one thing but Pirelli will be concerned about the potential loss of faith in their product and in the company and the consequential loss of contracts. These will be second only to there need to understand what actually happened to their product and the safety implications should they fail to understand it.
One can think up a myriad of theories but it is a hard commercial world at the best of times, let alone in the current economic conditions with other potential suppliers eager for any opportunity. So, personally, looking at this incident and the aftermath from a cold hard business point of view, I do not think Pirelli would be making false statements. Let's not forget that if it was a problem with the tyre which isn't identified it could happen again and the fallout would be huge. The bottom line is that in this case a cover-up is in no-one's interests, least of all Pirelli's.
Pirelli supply the tyres to the entire F1 grid. They are also the sole tyre supplier to other top flight auto' and motorcycle racing formulae. It would be an absolute commercial disaster for them to withhold information about the cause of a failure of one of their products. The potential for bad PR is one thing but Pirelli will be concerned about the potential loss of faith in their product and in the company and the consequential loss of contracts. These will be second only to there need to understand what actually happened to their product and the safety implications should they fail to understand it.
One can think up a myriad of theories but it is a hard commercial world at the best of times, let alone in the current economic conditions with other potential suppliers eager for any opportunity. So, personally, looking at this incident and the aftermath from a cold hard business point of view, I do not think Pirelli would be making false statements. Let's not forget that if it was a problem with the tyre which isn't identified it could happen again and the fallout would be huge. The bottom line is that in this case a cover-up is in no-one's interests, least of all Pirelli's.
Well yes they can't have evidence for everything because some of it would have to come from Redbull. It's not an out of hand dismissal and this is no different to a normal investigation where certain causal factors are discounted based on clear and indisputable evidence to narrow the areas of interests. I really don't understand how you can take this stance when we've not seen a full transcript of Pirelli's findings and the supporting evidence. They've released a public statement and Redbull would not have endorsed it without seeking assurances. I do like a questioning attitude and I don't want to come across as patronising but to suggest Pirelli have carried out their investigation in the absence of hard evidence is a bit unfair I think and does them a disservice.
Dizzi
Podium Finisher
Firstly I have absolutely no engineering know-how at all so I may be talking out of my proverbial(!).
From the on board footage of Jenson's car it looked to me like the smoke was more car-related than tyre-related.
Could it be that the EBD or similar was just too efficient & melted some of the bodywork which then came into contact with the tyre as the tyre compressed going around turn 2?
I assume these cars are extremely 'tight fit' in construction & it wouldn't take much out of correct alignment to cause problems.
I've probably sent several aerodynamicists needing a lie down with this naive theory
From the on board footage of Jenson's car it looked to me like the smoke was more car-related than tyre-related.
Could it be that the EBD or similar was just too efficient & melted some of the bodywork which then came into contact with the tyre as the tyre compressed going around turn 2?
I assume these cars are extremely 'tight fit' in construction & it wouldn't take much out of correct alignment to cause problems.
I've probably sent several aerodynamicists needing a lie down with this naive theory
Very rarely are instantaneous tyre blowouts (instantaneous being the key word) down to a manufacturing default, especially for tyres subject to stringent quality and safety checks and designed with a fail safe system, like an F1 tyre for example. There is plenty of literature on the subject on the internet. Blowouts happen everyday on our roads and I never heard the AA man get on the blower to Nankang, as cheap as they are, to ask them about the tyres they made. Pirelli only have one question to answer- Did the tyre compound (including the rim and other ancillaries) they supplied to Redbull of the quality demanded by FIA? As I said earlier, the fact that Redbull have been going against their advice all season pretty much exonerates them from blame.
You say that but Webber did an extra pit stop than everyone else so although they stated it was strategy maybe there was another reason behind it
Cookinflatsix
Banned
Firstly I have absolutely no engineering know-how at all so I may be talking out of my proverbial(!).
From the on board footage of Jenson's car it looked to me like the smoke was more car-related than tyre-related.
Could it be that the EBD or similar was just too efficient & melted some of the bodywork which then came into contact with the tyre as the tyre compressed going around turn 2?
I assume these cars are extremely 'tight fit' in construction & it wouldn't take much out of correct alignment to cause problems.
I've probably sent several aerodynamicists needing a lie down with this naive theory
Good spot of intuition I would say. If you remember that last year when the RBR cars had unreliability a lot was to do with overheating and there was lots of scorch marks around the rear of the car, with bits melting. It was only later that it was understood that this was EBD related, since then Newey sorted this out and they became ultra reliable.
I wonder if Seb has been running with more experimental and aggressive ducting solutions especially since he won the WC
I'm not surprised so much speculation is going into a simple tyre failure, but sometimes things just break man is fallible therefore sometimes things that man makes fail.
How many tyres have failed this year? and what percentage of those failures were due to outside influences i.e cuts on curbs, cuts from contact with another car, cuts from debris etc, it is conceivable that there was a bad tyre amongst the thousands Pirelli have produced this season and if that is the case thats not bad going better lets say than michelin did at the brickyard one year.
It could also have been a wheel problem maybe a slightly loose wheel or a glue failure the tyres are glued to the bead I believe, it could also be a Red Bull problem, what was it DC said RB run their tyres at a very low pressure, maybe they run them below what Pirelli recommend after all the lower the pressure the higher the grip and we know they run more rake angle on the fronts than pirelli say is safe.
Whatever the reason for the failure even if it was a bad tyre I don't believe you can blame Pirelli for it.
How many tyres have failed this year? and what percentage of those failures were due to outside influences i.e cuts on curbs, cuts from contact with another car, cuts from debris etc, it is conceivable that there was a bad tyre amongst the thousands Pirelli have produced this season and if that is the case thats not bad going better lets say than michelin did at the brickyard one year.
It could also have been a wheel problem maybe a slightly loose wheel or a glue failure the tyres are glued to the bead I believe, it could also be a Red Bull problem, what was it DC said RB run their tyres at a very low pressure, maybe they run them below what Pirelli recommend after all the lower the pressure the higher the grip and we know they run more rake angle on the fronts than pirelli say is safe.
Whatever the reason for the failure even if it was a bad tyre I don't believe you can blame Pirelli for it.
Andrea_Moda_Rules
Podium Finisher
looking at the footage, (not sure i buy the exhust theory). considering Rebull proberly would of know something was wrong from the telemetry and that bodywork seems such a fundermental error, that also would of shown itself earlier if true. Im left wondering. Is it possible in anyway for the tyre pressure to be trapped? Is it possible that the tyre was scratched but not fully punctured causing then with tyre movement, the force of a full race start and lower pressures a split in the rubber? and also if there is any way for a tyre to suddenly deflate because of that? Maybe the rubber split a bit and then turned into a rip?
Also im wondering, did the tyre actually deflate when Vettel Spun? The way the tyre was half off its rim, the top half of the tyre looked to very slightly over inflated almost as if the air was being pushed to the top as it moves away from the part of the rim that putting pressure on the tyre. Is it conceivable that the tyre was forced of its rim and then was damaged as Vettel tryed to make it back to the pits?
Well that my two sort of theroies, Whatever happened it was very very odd for it to happen on lap 1 turn 3, without something being noticeably wrong at the start of the race.
Also im wondering, did the tyre actually deflate when Vettel Spun? The way the tyre was half off its rim, the top half of the tyre looked to very slightly over inflated almost as if the air was being pushed to the top as it moves away from the part of the rim that putting pressure on the tyre. Is it conceivable that the tyre was forced of its rim and then was damaged as Vettel tryed to make it back to the pits?
Well that my two sort of theroies, Whatever happened it was very very odd for it to happen on lap 1 turn 3, without something being noticeably wrong at the start of the race.
Similar threads
