Technical Are Red Bull using exhaust gasses to heat the rear tyres?

tranquility2k9

Podium Finisher
Interesting report on possible cause of Vettel's tyre failure in Abu Dhabi:-

"Vettel's tire blew because of exhaust gasses during (pre)launch sequence. RB using it to warm rear tire sidewalls, something failed"
 
Interesting report on possible cause of Vettel's tyre failure in Abu Dhabi:-

"Vettel's tire blew because of exhaust gasses during (pre)launch sequence. RB using it to warm rear tire sidewalls, something failed"

Very interesting in light of the magic button theory, that as Quint pointed out, has been lurking around all season

But who said this? Only a RBR insider would be privy to such knowledge, why would they suddenly pipe up? And why is Webber so slow at starts if such an advantage is available?
 

HammydiRestarules

Di Resta fan :).
Contributor
Webber doesn't put enough rubber down when the cars set of on their formation lap, thats why he's such a slow start. If you watch closely you'll see what i mean. Also Webber's i don't thinks all the alert when the lights go off and maybe should focus more on the lights instead of his opponents when getting off the line.
 

tranquility2k9

Podium Finisher
That is very interesting indeed. Where did you get it from?

Sorry I can't remember, I saw it on twitter. I think it was re-tweeted by ScarbsF1. I generally only follow reliable sources. What I would say is that it was strange as to why Red Bull were so secretive over it. They must have been wanting to hide something that gives them performance.
 

tranquility2k9

Podium Finisher
Webbers starts have generally been very poor due to him falling into anti-stall. Also, this pre-launch sequence may not be for the launch itself but something to do with RB's almighty pace in the first lap or 2. I really don't know. I'll let you know if I find out anymore.
 

ExtremeNinja

Karting amateur
Contributor
Imagine the heat McLaren could have put into thier tyres with the octo-exhaust. (Ok, im being silly) I still wish that had worked out. I was so impressed when it became apparent what they were up to and was willing it to work with every ounce of my deep passion for innovation. (and now I've gone off topic)
 

Mephistopheles

Banned
Contributor
I don't believe that exhaust tyre side wall thing It just doesn't make sense the tyre needs to have a uniform heat if only the inner sidewall was heated it would cause the tyre to act strangely in the corners as the inner wall would flex more than the outer wall also the important part of the tyre i.e the bit that sits on the tarmac would sag at a peculiar angle causing loss of grip.

And not only that that from what I saw it was the outer edge of the tyre that came adrift from the bead not the inner edge.

And what would be the point in not letting people know what they were doing at this late stage of the championship nobody could replicate it and it will not be able to be done next year as the exhausts have to exit from the top of the car.

So all in all a red herring me thinks.

Also in general the Red Bulls have not been the best off the grid this year the best starters have been the Ferrari's and the the Macca's even the Mercs have made better starts than them.
 

ExtremeNinja

Karting amateur
Contributor
Given that the wheels are at a camber, a "sagging" or more malleable inner sidewall would allow for a more uniform contact of the adhesive surface of the tyre with the road. As left-field as it may seem, I'm not writing this one off until its written off for me. There are some people who are a lot smarter and informed than you or I that are entertaining it as a possibility.
 

The Pits

Harumph. Again.
Valued Member
I think that generally speaking the rear wheels tend to run with little or no camber, as they do more work with the vehicle in a straight line, as opposed to the front wheels.

I believe however, that there could be something in this.

If it is something to do with the exhaust heating the tyres, this would need to be evenly done, otherwise you will have hotspots, it would also need to be well managed as exhausts get far hotter than you would ideally like the tyres to be.

Could it be to do with sitting on the grid longer than normal, and hence creating a hot spot? maybe the wrong engine mode for the warm up lap, leading to excess heat? It did seem to me that the cars were on the grid for longer than normal, but that could be me.

Certainly not one to rule out until the people who know what they are doing pipe up!
 

Fenderman

Rooters Reporter
I haven't delved into this one yet but leaving aside the issue of uneven heating of the inner sidewall of the tyre which would be undesirable, there is an immediate problem with the theory of the exhaust being used to heat the tyres. The exhaust blown diffuser requires the hot exhaust gases to be directed into the rear diffuser venturi. So, would you sacrifice the gains of the EBD to end up overheating one side of your tyres just to get a good start? I don't think so.
 

Mephistopheles

Banned
Contributor
I'm not dismissing it out of hand lets just say I'm skeptical, but then being skeptical is in my nature. I did put forward the idea of using exhaust gases to warm the tyres in certain situations such as on the warm up lap leaving the pits and in safety car periods on another forum but it was shot down in flames by most people who read it.
 

The Pits

Harumph. Again.
Valued Member
I haven't delved into this one yet but leaving aside the issue of uneven heating of the inner sidewall of the tyre which would be undesirable, there is an immediate problem with the theory of the exhaust being used to heat the tyres. The exhaust blown diffuser requires the hot exhaust gases to be directed into the rear diffuser venturi. So, would you sacrifice the gains of the EBD to end up overheating one side of your tyres just to get a good start? I don't think so.

Due to the way the regs are written, the portion of the diffuser which the teams are allowed to blow is open at the sides, so the air on the tyres would not be wasted, more they generally heat the area between the body of the car and the wheel. when the car is moving the airflow will keep the excess heat away from the tyres.

I am really not sure what the answer is, however, it is not inconceivable that something along these lines exists.
 

Bill Boddy

Professional layabout
Premium Contributor
....

Could it be to do with sitting on the grid longer than normal, and hence creating a hot spot? maybe the wrong engine mode for the warm up lap, leading to excess heat? It did seem to me that the cars were on the grid for longer than normal, but that could be me.

....

I was beginning to think that the lights were stuck. I've just done a quick check after writing that, it was about 3 seconds. It seemed longer than that. More checks say about the same time for India and not much more than 1 second for Korea.
 

Fenderman

Rooters Reporter
I think you are absolutely right to be sceptical. After all, there is no way to turn the heating effect off without having a driver operated movable aero device to alter the direction of flow of the hot gases once they have had the desired effect on the tyre. Therefore the inboard tyre walls would continue to be excessively heated. Amongst other things tyre pressures will also continue to increase beyond the optimal pressures with the rising temperature. As we all know, it's important to run with the correct tyre pressures even on a road car, since to do otherwise reduces the durability, effectiveness and life of the tyre.

A lot of what goes on F1 is heavy science but, personally, I think simple common sense tells us that the pre-heatnig tyre theory is a non-runner. Please excuse the pun.:)
 

Fenderman

Rooters Reporter
Due to the way the regs are written, the portion of the diffuser which the teams are allowed to blow is open at the sides, so the air on the tyres would not be wasted, more they generally heat the area between the body of the car and the wheel. when the car is moving the airflow will keep the excess heat away from the tyres.

I am really not sure what the answer is, however, it is not inconceivable that something along these lines exists.
...like this:
http://www.formula1.com/news/technical/2011/847/915.html
http://www.formula1.com/news/technical/2011/0/834.html

Scarbs has a nice diagram here: http://scarbsf1.wordpress.com/category/exhaust-driven-diffuser/
showing the direction of flow from the EBD:

rbr_ebd_ebdflow.jpg


I see what you're saying. It's worth reading the whole of Scarbs' article as it is probably the best analysis publicly available. He also looks into the solutions of Ferrari, McLaren, etc. From what I can see, it seems unlikely that the dissipation pattern of heat from the exhaust of the RBR whilst the car is at rest is significantly different from that of the competition.
 

FB

Not my cup of cake
Valued Member
Sticky rears whilst the fronts cool down - likely to generate quite a bit of understeer? I would assume also if part of the exhaust gas is blowing onto the tyre it will do that throughout the race increasing (rear) tyre degredation as they couldn't alter the gas flow (could they)?

I wonder if this little "nugget" from Red Bull isn't just a bit of dis-infomation or maybe I'm just too cynical.
 
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