Another poor season
- Thread starter DOF_power
- Start date
Muddytalker
Points Scorer
Re: The 2010 season
Ok - in turn.
1 - I think you'd have much more support for this if you were comparing like with like - An aeroplane and an enclosed wheel production car are not the basis for single seater car design. It's too simplistic, not least because you are disregarding aerodynamic effects such as stalling. The Lotus you show isn't a good example either, for reasons that surely you don't need explaining. If it's ground effect you're after, then ok, suggest that, but that has it's own safety factors, such as flipping when too much air gets inder the car, driver blackouts through higher g-forces, amongst others. I think what you might want is for the overall grip of a car to be shifted from aerodynamic to mechanical (tyres, some underbody aero), which I believe would gain a lot of support around here.
2 - You haven't shown any evidence for this though. Do you not agree that the instances of blocking has decreased this year? From my memory, there are only two drivers on the grid who still block and swerve beyond what is acceptable. It's part of a racer's craft to defend successfully, but within reason.
3 - Well yes, obviously. So why not provide some examples? The problem is, as I'm sure you know, that F1 is not going to return to Brands, Zandvoort or Reims, anytime soon, and the current circuits aren't going to dig up what they have.
4 - By suggesting partially closed wheels, you are changing the ethos of Formula 1.
I'm puzzled. You disagree with the rules, you disagree with the driving regulations and standards, you disagree with the circuits. So why do you watch? It's a genuine question, because I'm struggling to understand what you expect a Grand Prix to entail, given where the starting point is.
DOF_power said:1. It's not a problem for the Eurofighter to use active aero at subsonic speeds to stabilize it, or for the Bugatti Veyron to a pop-up wing and spoiler at the back.
It's should be like that fully automatic using sensors for pressure, ride height, speed, proximity to other cars.
There was even an active aero production car in 90s, I don't remember if it was Nissan, Honda or whatever.
This was actually a proposal for 2011, but the teams refused this set of rules because Mosley wanted to go overboard with spec-ing.
2. Blocking will not decrease until it's banned (Indycar) or becomes fatal again.
3. Only the stuff the reduces overtaking should be removed ofcourse.
4. Simple, as power increased so did the drag on GP car via rules to keep safety levels up.
300 to 500 hp (depending on track) is enough is the wheels are partially enclosed and the overall drag is reduced to production car levels (on the straights at least) instead of being 3x to 4x higher like it is now.
So go to wingless cars.
A Lotus 88 with no wings, wheel covered partially plus a Veyron pop-up spoiler - wing.
with the spoiler wing down.
spoiler wing up.
Ok - in turn.
1 - I think you'd have much more support for this if you were comparing like with like - An aeroplane and an enclosed wheel production car are not the basis for single seater car design. It's too simplistic, not least because you are disregarding aerodynamic effects such as stalling. The Lotus you show isn't a good example either, for reasons that surely you don't need explaining. If it's ground effect you're after, then ok, suggest that, but that has it's own safety factors, such as flipping when too much air gets inder the car, driver blackouts through higher g-forces, amongst others. I think what you might want is for the overall grip of a car to be shifted from aerodynamic to mechanical (tyres, some underbody aero), which I believe would gain a lot of support around here.
2 - You haven't shown any evidence for this though. Do you not agree that the instances of blocking has decreased this year? From my memory, there are only two drivers on the grid who still block and swerve beyond what is acceptable. It's part of a racer's craft to defend successfully, but within reason.
3 - Well yes, obviously. So why not provide some examples? The problem is, as I'm sure you know, that F1 is not going to return to Brands, Zandvoort or Reims, anytime soon, and the current circuits aren't going to dig up what they have.
4 - By suggesting partially closed wheels, you are changing the ethos of Formula 1.
I'm puzzled. You disagree with the rules, you disagree with the driving regulations and standards, you disagree with the circuits. So why do you watch? It's a genuine question, because I'm struggling to understand what you expect a Grand Prix to entail, given where the starting point is.
NASCAR has lots of overtaking due to the slipstreaming nature of the sport (haven't seen an Indycar race for years so don't want to embarss myself by using that as an example) and, personally, I find NASCAR as dull as ditch water. You can have too much of a good thing.
I would rather watch half a dozen good overtaking manouevers which required some skill and ambition from the driver in terms of car positioning, braking and accelerating than 30 position changes a lap. Think Senna/Alesi at Phoenix 1990. The battle between those two satsified me for the whole race, perhaps I'm easily pleased although I like to think I'm in good company when you see Ken Tyrrell smiling
I would rather watch half a dozen good overtaking manouevers which required some skill and ambition from the driver in terms of car positioning, braking and accelerating than 30 position changes a lap. Think Senna/Alesi at Phoenix 1990. The battle between those two satsified me for the whole race, perhaps I'm easily pleased although I like to think I'm in good company when you see Ken Tyrrell smiling
Muddytalker
Points Scorer
DOF_power said:
Any car that had a 100hp advantage would not be behind in the first place. Furthermore, where is the driver skill in flooring it and using a monstrous advantage?
I agree that more variety is needed (there are threads from earlier in the year which discussed what makes overtaking happen, and a prime factor is a performance differential, but it has to come with a disadvantage otherwise there would be no 'retakes'), but it needs more thought than a few random suggestions.
Re: The 2010 season
1] Champcar had no problem running ground effects to produce a lot of its downforce, nor does Formula Nippon.
Ofcourse there will be safety considerations like max power restriction, the use of standardized tunnel blockers for the intake and exit, max AoA, ballast to keep things from going too far.
The Lotus had no problem other than the fact that it was banned on political reasons.
The current power level will have to be drastically reduced as I mentioned, 300 to 500 hp depending what is safe at each track.
Active aero will work just fine. The Veyron did 431 km/h, the EF twice as that.
F1 will be just fine, no uncontrollable stalling issues even with current F duct, its speed and stress is quite small. It just needs proper electronics and sensors.
2] No blocking, nor defending, nor swearing whatsoever, not even one.
Instant black flag for the driver that brakes too late, pushes somebody onto the grass, takes or out another driver, or punctures someones tire. If he spins and causes a safety car he'll automatically have to go to the back of the grid.
3] I never said otherwise, just pointing out a personal wish and an opinion that professional drivers also agree with.
4] Then so be it, but I doubt it.
In fact cars like Fangio W196 Mercedes that won Rheims in 54 had fully enclosed wheel (and I'm only suggesting partial coverage to reduce drag, turbulence and punctures).
The ban on wheel covering came in the 70s and it's relatively recent consider the first GP was in 1906.
Muddytalker said:
1] Champcar had no problem running ground effects to produce a lot of its downforce, nor does Formula Nippon.
Ofcourse there will be safety considerations like max power restriction, the use of standardized tunnel blockers for the intake and exit, max AoA, ballast to keep things from going too far.
The Lotus had no problem other than the fact that it was banned on political reasons.
The current power level will have to be drastically reduced as I mentioned, 300 to 500 hp depending what is safe at each track.
Active aero will work just fine. The Veyron did 431 km/h, the EF twice as that.
F1 will be just fine, no uncontrollable stalling issues even with current F duct, its speed and stress is quite small. It just needs proper electronics and sensors.
2] No blocking, nor defending, nor swearing whatsoever, not even one.
Instant black flag for the driver that brakes too late, pushes somebody onto the grass, takes or out another driver, or punctures someones tire. If he spins and causes a safety car he'll automatically have to go to the back of the grid.
3] I never said otherwise, just pointing out a personal wish and an opinion that professional drivers also agree with.
4] Then so be it, but I doubt it.
In fact cars like Fangio W196 Mercedes that won Rheims in 54 had fully enclosed wheel (and I'm only suggesting partial coverage to reduce drag, turbulence and punctures).
The ban on wheel covering came in the 70s and it's relatively recent consider the first GP was in 1906.
snowy
Champion Elect
We need this kind of controversy in F1 like we need a hole in the head:
http://www.gpupdate.net/en/indycar-series-news/239766/dixon-wins-amid-controversy-at-edmonton/
In that case then I would have to agree with the previous comments, F1 is not for you.DOF_power said:
Presumably to achieve numerous easy passes with faster cars you would advocate lining up on the grid in reverse order?
Otherwise how would cars which line up in order of fastest first ever be able to pass the car in front?
Brogan said:
NASCAR sucks on the 1.5 cookie cutters (witch represents most of the tracks) and the plate tracks take away engine driveability (well this year was better). The short tracks and road courses are OK, but the cars looking all the same make me puke.
.
The Trucks offer the best racing, but it would need more body variety and up to date relevant tech.
Muddytalker
Points Scorer
With regards to 2 - If you instill draconian penalties for failed overtaking manoevres, you will stop the manoevres happening in the first place.
4 - "The ban on wheel covering came in the 70s and it's relatively recent consider the first GP was in 1906"
The mobile telephone is a recent invention compared to other communications devices, but the change in mobile technology for the last 10 years compared to the previous 100 is dramatic beyond comparison. Because something worked 100, or 20 years ago you cannot assume it would work now, when there are so many other different factors involved.
4 - "The ban on wheel covering came in the 70s and it's relatively recent consider the first GP was in 1906"
The mobile telephone is a recent invention compared to other communications devices, but the change in mobile technology for the last 10 years compared to the previous 100 is dramatic beyond comparison. Because something worked 100, or 20 years ago you cannot assume it would work now, when there are so many other different factors involved.
Muddytalker
Points Scorer
DOF_power said:
Slightly tongue-in-cheek here, but go and see a 'Legends' race, this will give you what you want (covered wheels, small torquey motorbike engines, reverse grids); The racing is great and fun to watch, and you get several heats/races per meeting. I'm a fan, but it doesn't mean I expect to see the same thing at a premier motor racing event.
Brogan said:
In the 30s there written rules that said the slower car must pull over to the right to let the faster car pass.
When this rule was not used and/or enforced drivers got killed and injured.
In the early 70s Jacky Ickxs and j. Rindt at Hockenheim would talk to each other an announce when they were gonna pass and where.
Overall blocking, chop-ing and defending was an exception till the 70s, it became standard in the 80s with dirty drivers like Mansell, Piquet snr. and Senna.
Modern F1/GP racing isn't quite for me, but in the older days had plenty of things there right.
F1 is what it is. Of course, everyone keeps on saying that they would prefer more overtaking, and harp on back to the 'golden era' or whatever that means.
People cite many reasons for what they say is the downfall of F1, be it lack of overtaking from tyres, aero, or track design. Most of these people don't really understand what they want, or how to achieve it. They say that they would like to see the drivers make more of an impact, but don't want a spec series.
They say they want more overtaking, but don't want it to likened to IndyCar with a thousand passes a race.
If we are honest, going back to the 80's is not feasible. We can't go back to the situation where drivers dying in the race was not unexpected, where we raced a 10 minute lap around Nordschleife through the trees, and only saw the cars at the start/finish straight.
People are very good at pointing out the deficiencies of F1, but can not really offer any suitable alternatives. I like to see a driver fighting to keep his position, not just to gain one.
The world is full of compromise, and it always will be. I always feel that people are somewhat blinkered when they look towards the past, and tend to stare at it through rose tinted glasses. "Things weren't like this back in my day".
True I suppose, but things that don't change tend to stagnate.
Would we really like to be stuck in the past? Would we like to go back there? Because getting rid of all the aerodynamics and advances made since that time, is a sure way to go about it
People cite many reasons for what they say is the downfall of F1, be it lack of overtaking from tyres, aero, or track design. Most of these people don't really understand what they want, or how to achieve it. They say that they would like to see the drivers make more of an impact, but don't want a spec series.
They say they want more overtaking, but don't want it to likened to IndyCar with a thousand passes a race.
If we are honest, going back to the 80's is not feasible. We can't go back to the situation where drivers dying in the race was not unexpected, where we raced a 10 minute lap around Nordschleife through the trees, and only saw the cars at the start/finish straight.
People are very good at pointing out the deficiencies of F1, but can not really offer any suitable alternatives. I like to see a driver fighting to keep his position, not just to gain one.
The world is full of compromise, and it always will be. I always feel that people are somewhat blinkered when they look towards the past, and tend to stare at it through rose tinted glasses. "Things weren't like this back in my day".
True I suppose, but things that don't change tend to stagnate.
Would we really like to be stuck in the past? Would we like to go back there? Because getting rid of all the aerodynamics and advances made since that time, is a sure way to go about it
