Another poor season

DOF_power

Banned
Another season another shit season.
I don't care about passing HRTs, Lotuses or Virgins endless amounts of time.
I want overtaking in the front of the field in the dry without any driver mistakes involved.

Monza 71, 69, 67 are how it should be.

Mod comment

Please do not bypass the swear filter. Just type the word normally and allow the swear filter to do its job or use the :censored: smilie.

Thank you.
 

McZiderRed

Champion Elect
Supporter
Re: The 2010 season

DOF_power said:
I don't care about passing HRTs, Lotuses or Virgins endless amounts of time.
I want overtaking in the front of the field in the dry without any driver mistakes involved.

Yes, a noble ambition. :)

What are your thoughts on how this could be achieved?
 

cosicave

Banned
Re: The 2010 season

DOF_power said:
Another season another rubbish season.
I don't care about passing HRTs, Lotuses or Virgins endless amounts of time.
I want overtaking in the front of the field in the dry without any driver mistakes involved.
Monza 71, 69, 67 are how it should be.
I notice that you have mentioned just three seasons: namely 1967, 1969 and 1971. Why didn't you also mention 2010? Although we are only half way through the season, we have already seen on track passes at the front of the field, both successful and unsuccessful, during this season - which I predict will one day be looked back upon by most as a 'classic'. (I suggest you check the valuable data held within and researched by this very forum!).

However, you may find other motor-sport more to your palate; such as the various forms of motor-racing more common to the USA.
 

DOF_power

Banned
Re: The 2010 season

McZiderRed said:
DOF_power said:
I don't care about passing HRTs, Lotuses or Virgins endless amounts of time.
I want overtaking in the front of the field in the dry without any driver mistakes involved.

Yes, a noble ambition. :)

What are your thoughts on how this could be achieved?



1] Active aero (via sensors and movable wings front and rear and ground effects controlled via active suspensions) and AWD with active differentials that create an "active slipstream" scenario akin to before wings when the car behind got less lift/ more grip and less drag.

The car behind will get an (unbeatable) advantage just like in old days.


2] Ban blocking/defensive maneuvers.

Drivers should not block, but re-pass.


3] Eliminate corners and chicanes on all the tracks.


4] Give the engines (a lot) more torque to improve their driveability.
 

DOF_power

Banned
Re: The 2010 season

cosicave said:
I notice that you have mentioned just three seasons: namely 1967, 1969 and 1971. Why didn't you also mention 2010? Although we are only half way through the season, we have already seen on track passes at the front of the field, both successful and unsuccessful, during this season - which I predict will one day be looked back upon by most as a 'classic'. (I suggest you check the valuable data held within and researched by this very forum!).

However, you may find other motor-sport more to your palate; such as the various forms of motor-racing more common to the USA.



2010 had no classic epic races in the dry.
Youtube Monza 69, 67, 71.
 

slickskid

Points Scorer
Supporter
Re: The 2010 season

DOF_power said:
3] Eliminate corners and chicanes on all the tracks.

Hummm :thinking: i'm not aware of any 300km dead straight circuits in the world then again i'm not convinced watching a drag race of that length would be my idea of fun :crazy:
 

Enja

isn't dead.
Valued Member
Re: The 2010 season

DOF_power said:
2010 had no classic epic races in the dry.
Youtube Monza 69, 67, 71.

Turkey. Canada. Arguably Australia (it was raining for 1 lap).
 

Muddytalker

Points Scorer
Re: The 2010 season

DOF_power said:
McZiderRed said:
[quote="DOF_power":2dldf2xj]I don't care about passing HRTs, Lotuses or Virgins endless amounts of time.
I want overtaking in the front of the field in the dry without any driver mistakes involved.

Yes, a noble ambition. :)

What are your thoughts on how this could be achieved?

1] Active aero (via sensors and movable wings front and rear and ground effects controlled via active suspensions) and AWD with active differentials that create an "active slipstream" scenario akin to before wings when the car behind got less lift/ more grip and less drag.
The car behind will get an (unbeatable) advantage just like in old days.
2] Ban blocking/defensive maneuvers.
Drivers should not block, but re-pass.
3] Eliminate corners and chicanes on all the tracks.
4] Give the engines (a lot) more torque to improve their driveability.[/quote:2dldf2xj]

1 - How is the active element to be utilised? By driver input, or according to where the car is on the track? Either way, I have massive reservations about a cars' defined behaviour and attitude relative to the track being allowed to alter more than the confines of it's 'natural' suspension allow. The degree of error, whether human or mechanical is simply too great.
2 - I have no problem with this, however I feel that the prevalence of blocking is directly proportional to the the difficulty of overtaking. For example, NASCAR - Since it is recognised that being overtaken is not the end of your race, and you can re-take the position a few laps later, then blocking rarely occurs. By increasing the mechanical ability of an F1 car to overtake (and be definition re-take), I strongly believe that blocking will decrease.
3 - This requires further explanation. There are some corners and sequences that create overtaking (Eau Rouge, the Adelaide hairpin at Magny Cours, the Montreal hairpin, the last few corners at Turkey), and some that reduce it (any turn at Barcelona, the added Bahrain section, the latest, open version of St Devote).
4 - This may be a valid point, I'm not fully up to speed on the benefits/disadvantages of higher torque, so this could be a good idea. Unfortunately the FIA don't want anything other than a standard engine. I would however increase the minimum mass of an F1 car. Consider the power/weight ratios from the past - I think I'm right in saying that the Cosworth DFV produced around 500-540 Bhp, and the car mass was around 540Kg. Since then, power has increased to upto 700, 750, 800 Bhp, and yet the mass of the car has gone up by very little. As brakes, aerodynamics and suspensions have become more efficient and consistent, the braking zone has been dramatically reduced. Increasing the mass of the car will increase this braking zone, and create more opportunities.

I understand your desire to see slip-streaming battles, for lap after lap, but without going back to wingless cars on high speed circuits (and their inherent dangers) this isn't going to happen. There is also the difference in culture and attitudes. As you have posted yourself elsewhere, F1 long ago went down the road of business over sport, and winning is now everything (as much as we the fans disagree with this attitude, it's there). I would suggest that even if you took the wings off, and let them race around the Monza of the 60's and early 70's, that as soon as one driver decided "There's no point in overtaking now, I'll sit in second and wait until coming out of the Parabolica on the last lap, and then slipstream" they would all do it, and the overtaking would decrease once more.
 

DOF_power

Banned
Re: The 2010 season

Muddytalker said:
1 - How is the active element to be utilised? By driver input, or according to where the car is on the track? Either way, I have massive reservations about a cars' defined behaviour and attitude relative to the track being allowed to alter more than the confines of it's 'natural' suspension allow. The degree of error, whether human or mechanical is simply too great.


2 - I have no problem with this, however I feel that the prevalence of blocking is directly proportional to the the difficulty of overtaking. For example, NASCAR - Since it is recognised that being overtaken is not the end of your race, and you can re-take the position a few laps later, then blocking rarely occurs. By increasing the mechanical ability of an F1 car to overtake (and be definition re-take), I strongly believe that blocking will decrease.


3 - This requires further explanation. There are some corners and sequences that create overtaking (Eau Rouge, the Adelaide hairpin at Magny Cours, the Montreal hairpin, the last few corners at Turkey), and some that reduce it (any turn at Barcelona, the added Bahrain section, the latest, open version of St Devote).


4 - This may be a valid point, I'm not fully up to speed on the benefits/disadvantages of higher torque, so this could be a good idea. Unfortunately the FIA don't want anything other than a standard engine. I would however increase the minimum mass of an F1 car. Consider the power/weight ratios from the past - I think I'm right in saying that the Cosworth DFV produced around 500-540 Bhp, and the car mass was around 540Kg. Since then, power has increased to upto 700, 750, 800 Bhp, and yet the mass of the car has gone up by very little. As brakes, aerodynamics and suspensions have become more efficient and consistent, the braking zone has been dramatically reduced. Increasing the mass of the car will increase this braking zone, and create more opportunities.


I understand your desire to see slip-streaming battles, for lap after lap, but without going back to wingless cars on high speed circuits (and their inherent dangers) this isn't going to happen. There is also the difference in culture and attitudes. As you have posted yourself elsewhere, F1 long ago went down the road of business over sport, and winning is now everything (as much as we the fans disagree with this attitude, it's there). I would suggest that even if you took the wings off, and let them race around the Monza of the 60's and early 70's, that as soon as one driver decided "There's no point in overtaking now, I'll sit in second and wait until coming out of the Parabolica on the last lap, and then slipstream" they would all do it, and the overtaking would decrease once more.



1. It's not a problem for the Eurofighter to use active aero at subsonic speeds to stabilize it, or for the Bugatti Veyron to a pop-up wing and spoiler at the back.
It's should be like that fully automatic using sensors for pressure, ride height, speed, proximity to other cars.
There was even an active aero production car in 90s, I don't remember if it was Nissan, Honda or whatever.

This was actually a proposal for 2011, but the teams refused this set of rules because Mosley wanted to go overboard with spec-ing.


2. Blocking will not decrease until it's banned (Indycar) or becomes fatal again.


3. Only the stuff the reduces overtaking should be removed ofcourse.


4. Simple, as power increased so did the drag on GP car via rules to keep safety levels up.
300 to 500 hp (depending on track) is enough is the wheels are partially enclosed and the overall drag is reduced to production car levels (on the straights at least) instead of being 3x to 4x higher like it is now.



So go to wingless cars.


A Lotus 88 with no wings, wheel covered partially plus a Veyron pop-up spoiler - wing.





with the spoiler wing down.



spoiler wing up.
 

Speshal

World Champion
Valued Member
Personally I think it's been a cracking season so far (yesterday excluded) and I've been watching F1 for donky's.

What I think you want is some sort of race sim game.
 

Speshal

World Champion
Valued Member
May I politely suggest, if you don't like it, don't watch it?

Plenty of DVDs out there with classic seasons on them?
 

Enja

isn't dead.
Valued Member
DOF_power said:
You mean poor/no overtaking, primitive and irrelevant technology on witch a fortune is spent is something to be happy about ?!

Sorry I want on-track racing and relevance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8JhWyxekzQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwDWjQTwzwU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GN2dtVGpvxs

Call me we'll get that back.
Racing, that' what I want.

Relevance is bullshit, F1 hasn't been road-relevant for years and any attempt that they will make with KERS is paltry.

Want on-track racing?

GP2. GP3. BTCC. Formula Ford. Formula BMW. Formula Renault. World Series by Renault. MotoGP. Moto2. Christ, even IndyCar, NASCAR. Your local karting circuit.

You get far better "racing" in any of those disciplines than you do with F1, stop painting the old days as some kind of brilliant overtakingfest where there were lead changes every lap.
 

Brogan

🦶 Leg end
Staff Member
Guys, let's keep it friendly eh? DOF_power is entitled to his opinion just as everyone is.

For the actual stat's on which overtakes have been made for which position this season then see here: F1 2010 Overtaking Summary



I can understand where the OP is coming from but that's not to say I agree with him.
For the top 4 positions there have been a total of 14 overtakes this season, not a huge amount I think everyone will agree with.
If anything, yesterday's race showed that it is still difficult to pass when the cars have similar performance.
Alonso was unable to pass Massa, likewise Button was unable to pass Hamilton. We have seen that scenario several times this year so there is still an issue with passing even when the chasing car is a couple of seconds per lap quicker.

However, I don't happen to think it was that much different in the past.
Yes it was slightly easier to slipstream but a lot of passing was still made in the midfield and at the lower end of the grid and by faster cars on slower cars.
 

DOF_power

Banned
Speshal said:
May I politely suggest, if you don't like it, don't watch it?

Plenty of DVDs out there with classic seasons on them?



Don't worry I don't really watch many races live. I just skip thru them with fast forward.
 

cider_and_toast

Exulted Lord High Moderator of the Apex
Staff Member
Premium Contributor
To be fair to DOF there are some interesting points raised here. While no one would be particularly excited by F1 if the lead changed every half a lap would yesterdays controversial team orders been required if it had been easier for one car to overtake another.

While I don't think it's fair to write this whole season off as rubbish because there has been a greater proportion of classic races this season than there has been for some time I believe we can all agree that there is still a need to review the ability for the lead cars to pass each other. The overtaking working group have still got some way to go if we are to see this happen.

For every classic there has ever been in F1 there have almost certainly been a similar number of absolutely boring, dull as dishwater races that make watching the grass grow seem fascinating. This off course applies to any era of the sport.

For a bit of modern road relevancy and to see engines with increased torque how about allowing the use of diesel engines? Obviously there would have to be an equivalence worked out between diesel and petrol but it would open up an interesting avenue of engine design and development.
 

DOF_power

Banned
Brogan said:
Guys, let's keep it friendly eh? DOF_power is entitled to his opinion just as everyone is.

For the actual stat's on which overtakes have been made for which position this season then see here: F1 2010 Overtaking Summary

I can understand where the OP is coming from but that's not to say I agree with him.
For the top 4 positions there have been a total of 14 overtakes this season, not a huge amount I think everyone will agree with.

However, I don't happen to think it was that much different in the past.
Yes it was slightly easier to slipstream but a lot of passing was still made in the midfield and at the lower end of the grid and by faster cars on slower cars.



Monza pre chicanes had 25 to 41 on-track lead changes.
At Rheims Fangio and Hawthorne passed and repassed each other for over 3 hours.

This acceptance of the current pathetic numbers means a lot are willing to accept garbage shoved down their throats in the name of a supposed purity that never existed.

Overtaking in GP/F1 GP racing was very easy, just put the foot down and used the extra 100-200 hp and/or splistream and get ahead of the slow(er) cars.
 

DOF_power

Banned
Enja said:
Relevance is bovine excrement, F1 hasn't been road-relevant for years and any attempt that they will make with KERS is paltry.

Want on-track racing?

GP2. GP3. BTCC. Formula Ford. Formula BMW. Formula Renault. World Series by Renault. MotoGP. Moto2. Christ, even IndyCar, NASCAR. Your local karting circuit.

You get far better "racing" in any of those disciplines than you do with F1, stop painting the old days as some kind of brilliant overtakingfest where there were lead changes every lap.



F1 hasn't been relevant (since ~ 1993) but it can be again, it should be, and it should use relevant technology to improve the on-track racing.
The ease in overtaking must return.

Spec and semi-spec series don't count.
And I do watch Moto GP.
 
Top Bottom