Grand Prix 2019 Italian Grand Prix Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

Angel

🧸 Smile, it might never happen.
Contributor
Vettel has even more to worry about given he was handed another 3 points on his license for his dangerous move. That means he's just 3 points away from a race ban. It never rains but it pours.

 
Yes, it looks like Ferrari has written Sebastian off and out. I cannot predict whether damage is permanent, but it is possibility and cannot be dismissed. On Ferrari website Vettel is hardly mentioned after last race at Monza.
I think that the problems between Vettel and Ferrari (or between Ferrari and Vettel) are deeper than that, just consider that thy never once gave him a car with a strong front end as he likes to drive. If you think about it it's amazing, they spent so much money but they never bothered to design a car that would suit the needs of their supposed lead driver. I also think that Vettel doesn't help them in not having a manager, he deals with them directly for any matter, this must be very difficult from a relationship point of view, a manager very often is there to smooth things out, to act as a go between etc, Vettel does everything by himself. Also I understand that people was not very happy when Vettel was writing down all the set up decisions on his copybook, apparently someone felt that he was double guessing them.

I personally think that Ferrari's reaction to Vettel's penalty in Canada was too weak, I guess that he felt betrayed, from then onwards he has never looked very focused, it's as if he has given up on them completely (to me it looks as if Ferrari had given up on him much earlier).

It would be interesting to see if he manages to find another car, IMHO his adventure at Ferrari is over.

One has to wonder how the relationship between Ferrari and Leclerc will look like in a couple of years time, Ferrari managed to ruin their relationship with all their recent lead drivers (Schumacher was dismissed while he still wanted to race, Kimi was paid not to race only to be hired again a few years later, Alonso was shown the door, Vettel now looks like an unwelcome guest there), in a sense Ferrari seems to share Ducati's ability to screw their chances by mismanaging their drivers.
 

Izumi

Points Scorer
As usual with you, superior assessment of the situation, Publius. Sebastian might go back to RBR (maybe), or more likely to retire from racing. I find rather offensive (sorry for that) claims that car was specifically designed for him, because if that was the intent, they either missed the target through sheer incompetence, or they do not understand his driving style. At Monza he was openly angry at life when he provided tow for his teammate in Q3, and then was left (by people around him) in cold, looking like idiot.

I've bad feeling about the relationship being on rocks already about in 2016 during car launch, when I saw Ferrari management stepping back from Vettel, and crowding his teammates. Body language sometimes is more telling than words coming out of their mouth. The warm relationship Michael had, or Seb had at RBR was never replicated during his stay at Maranello IMO.
 
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Ruslan

Points Scorer
I think that if yesterday Leclerc had been driving a different car he would probably have ended up with a couple of punishments (not that I would necessarily agree with such punishments though)
This is exactly the issue. It is more than just an issue about what penalties should or should not be applied and how (which I think is a subject that people will always disagree on to some extent)....but it is the fact that there appear to be different rules on different days, at different tracks, for different drivers and apparently different teams. This needs to be corrected. I am not sure that anyone disagrees with this....yet FIA takes no concrete corrective action.

Just to clarify I watched the race on Sky Italia and they agreed that it was rather odd (including the fact that the stewards "noted" Leclerc cutting the chicane), I don't think that at Sky Italia they are biased against Ferrari, especially when one of the pundits is Marc Gene who to my knowledge still works for Ferrari
Thanks for that. I did watch the race with a friend. Both decisions seemed odd to both of us. We now get the British Sky TV broadcast, which is not bad, but not as good as the old "U.S." broadcast team of Hobbs-Matchett-Buxton.
 

Ruslan

Points Scorer
Hard not to respond to this great post:

I think that the problems between Vettel and Ferrari (or between Ferrari and Vettel) are deeper than that, just consider that thy never once gave him a car with a strong front end as he likes to drive. If you think about it it's amazing, they spent so much money but they never bothered to design a car that would suit the needs of their supposed lead driver.
I started my career working with engineers, even though I was not one. There is sometimes a tendency for them to be over-focused on the engineering and not very focused on the people. I have seen this before, where the engineers do things that make sense from their perspective without consideration of human factors. I could give a number of stories from personal experience...but for example, NASA design the original Mercury capsule without a window. They were going to send the astronauts up in a space in a "tin can." Needless to say, when the original seven astronauts showed up and saw the capsule.......

I also think that Vettel doesn't help them in not having a manager, he deals with them directly for any matter, this must be very difficult from a relationship point of view, a manager very often is there to smooth things out, to act as a go between etc, Vettel does everything by himself. Also I understand that people was not very happy when Vettel was writing down all the set up decisions on his copybook, apparently someone felt that he was double guessing them.
Good point. It does help to have someone who can fight for you and leave your personal relationships not bruised.

I personally think that Ferrari's reaction to Vettel's penalty in Canada was too weak, I guess that he felt betrayed, from then onwards he has never looked very focused, it's as if he has given up on them completely (to me it looks as if Ferrari had given up on him much earlier).
It is clear that Vettel has not been the same since Canada. It appears he is de-motivated. Is this something that Binotto understands and knows how to correct?

It would be interesting to see if he manages to find another car, IMHO his adventure at Ferrari is over.
I think he will be there in 2020...but not sure after that.

One has to wonder how the relationship between Ferrari and Leclerc will look like in a couple of years time, Ferrari managed to ruin their relationship with all their recent lead drivers (Schumacher was dismissed while he still wanted to race, Kimi was paid not to race only to be hired again a few years later, Alonso was shown the door, Vettel now looks like an unwelcome guest there), in a sense Ferrari seems to share Ducati's ability to screw their chances by mismanaging their drivers.
Noted. My real introduction to Ferrari was reading Phil Hill's authorized biography (which is a great book). He ended poorly with Ferrari and was part of a big walk-out.
 
I find rather offensive (sorry for that) claims that car was specifically designed for him, because if that was the intent, they either missed the target through sheer incompetence, or they do not understand his driving style.
If I remember correctly they never said that they tried to build a car to suit his driving style, in his first few years with Ferrari they said that James Allison had a very close relationship with Kimi and therefore the car was more to Kimi's liking, in the last couple of seasons they did the exact opposite of what Vettel seems to like, they gave him a car with very little front grip. I think that in the last few seasons there has been a lot going on at Ferrari, too many changes, maybe Vettel isn't the easiest to please, I don't know. But when you hear Mattia Binotto talking about his drivers it seems as if one is on top of the world and the other is a total failure, irrespective of the fact that on points Vettel is still marginally ahead.

I personally feel that Vettel is trying too hard to be a "nice guy", nice guys don't win, you need to be ruthless and I don't see him being very ruthless. What happened on Saturday was just undignified, ok Vettel had a point but I would have never gone public if I was him, the team didn't even try to defend him. As I said I don't know who's fault it is but the relationship seem to have hit the rocks.

I guess that Leclerc should enjoy the moment because what the media are writing about him now is what they were writing about Vettel only a couple of years ago
 
There is sometimes a tendency for them to be over-focused on the engineering and not very focused on the people.


It does help to have someone who can fight for you and leave your personal relationships not bruised.


It is clear that Vettel has not been the same since Canada. It appears he is de-motivated. Is this something that Binotto understands and knows how to correct?


I think he will be there in 2020...but not sure after that.
I think that extreme engineering solutions are fine when they work, when Adrian Newey built cars with not enough for drivers to sit in no one could really complain that much since the cars were good. If a car is very extreme and it goes against the wishes of a driver AND it doesn't perform (like this year Ferrari who seems fast only on a straight line) then it become tougher to justify. For a rookie like Leclerc everything is an improvement compared to what he had before and he probably sees mostly the upside, for someone used to having the best gear like Vettel it must be frustrating.

I think that Vettel needs someone who he can talk with.

I'm not sure that Binotto understand how to motivate his drivers, from the outside it doesn't look very promising. In a sense for Vettel it all went downhill since Marchionne passed away.

I'm not so sure that he'll be around next year, a lot of people seem to be confident that Ricciardo will be asked to replace him (I don't think that Ricciardo would be a very easy team mate for Leclerc)
 

Ruslan

Points Scorer
I think that Vettel needs someone who he can talk with.
Yep.

I'm not sure that Binotto understand how to motivate his drivers, from the outside it doesn't look very promising. In a sense for Vettel it all went downhill since Marchionne passed away.
In the end, management is about leading people. This is not something that a lot of otherwise capable people are good at.

I'm not so sure that he'll be around next year, a lot of people seem to be confident that Ricciardo will be asked to replace him (I don't think that Ricciardo would be a very easy team mate for Leclerc)
I assume Ricciardo is under contract with Renault next year. I think Vettel is also under contract. I also don't think Ferrari has a lot of other options.
 

Bleu

Points Scorer
Vettel has even more to worry about given he was handed another 3 points on his license for his dangerous move. That means he's just 3 points away from a race ban. It never rains but it pours.

Taking account next year it might be even tougher - it's five points and 15 races to go based on provisional calendar.
 

RasputinLives

Not dead
Contributor
They don't have one officially. Two out of the four test drivers have super licence though. Pascal Wrehlein and Brendan Hartley.

Ferrari obviously do their usual trick of hoovering up the drivers out of contract who have some inside knowledge of their rivals set up.
 
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Il_leone

Champion Elect
5 years at Ferrari - $200m salary ( $40m a year)

0 titles

2015 - 3wins
2016 - 0 wins
2017 - 5 wins
2018 - 5 wins
2019 - 0 wins so far

More wins than Alonso but going to end up the same way leaving Ferrari bitter. James Hunt once said a lot of drivers fail to recover from their experience at Ferrari because it is such a shock to them. Vettel is on that downward spiral, the next 7 races for Vettel are critical to what might lie ahead of him for 2020.

DC even said the writing is on the wall for Vettel at Ferrari on Sunday which may sound harsh but could be true
 

Angel

🧸 Smile, it might never happen.
Contributor
I'm not sure Ferrari will let Vettel return to the fight. Leclerc has more points than him now and two wins to zero, I can see them getting behind Leclerc and demotivating Vettel even further. I'll be surprised if he doesn't move teams or retire at the end of this year the way things are going for him.
 

vintly

Mostly bacon
Premium Contributor
If Leclerc beats him fair and square in Singapore then Vettel's definitely in trouble. But he's electric round there, I expect him to beat Leclerc.
 

Angel

🧸 Smile, it might never happen.
Contributor
If Leclerc beats him fair and square in Singapore then Vettel's definitely in trouble. But he's electric round there, I expect him to beat Leclerc.
True, that's why I bet on Vettel in the You Bet game ;)
 

F1Brits_90

Race Winner
Vettel did beat Leclerc albeit on different pit strategy In hungary on circuit that is as twisty as Singapore is. but they were the 3rd best team comfortably or uncomfortably. so he could do it but its not just pace in Singapore its the concentration & mental fatigue that will play a big factor. because we talking about a race is always as close to a endurance race because its 2hr of pure concentration & 1 lapse your in wall
 
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