Grand Prix 2019 Italian Grand Prix Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

What? The Italian GP thread is up and the Belgian race hasn't even taken place? Well, spoiler alert, Lewis took pole in Spa and won the race at a canter, Bottas was second and Max was third.

So, on to the temple of speed. A fixture of the F1 calendar since the first World Championship season (with the exception of a moment of silliness in 1980 when they went to Imola) Monza has given us the two fastest Grand Prix in Championship history.

1971, the days when the Monza low drag spec. was to take all the wings off and just drive round slip streaming the other cars until you got to the end. No chicanes, no compulsory tyre stops, no DRS, just balls out from start to finish. Chris Amon put his Matra on pole with a lap at over 156mph. Amon has the reputation of being a very unlucky driver and this race wasn't to be any different as he only finished 6th. The final laps are stunning to watch as the cars buzz around taking and overtaking one another again and again. Peter Gethin won the race in the BRM at an average speed of a smidge under 151mph and the first 5 cars crossed the line within 0.6 seconds of one another.

A few other oddities about 1971. Emerson Fittipaldi drove a four wheel drive, gas turbine engined Lotus 56B but it wasn't a Lotus it was entered by World Wide Racing. It was the first race for motor cycling World Champion Mike Hailwood. He led at various points, eventually finishing 4th. An English driver wouldn't win again until James Hunt stood on the top step in Holland in 1975.

2003, the time Michael Schumacher stood (almost) without equal in F1. Although he was being pushed hard by Juan Pablo Montoya in the 2003 season and before the race in Monza hadn't won a race since Canada. There were some games before the race as those using Michelin tyres had to cope with a small rule change on tyre widths which allowed the Bridgestone runners to get back on terms. Schumacher and Montoya pushed each hard through the race but Michael was just too quick. Even with two pit stops for tyres Schumacher averaged 153.8 mph for the race. This at a circuit with three chicanes to "slow the cars down".

What chance a new race record in 2019? The cars are fast enough, Kimi's pole lap in 2018 was 163.8 mph :o . Can we avoid a safety car?

Enjoy one of the shortest races of the season (about 1 1/4 hours) at the most historic circuit on the calendar.
 
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FB

Not my cup of cake
Valued Member
They use the b&w flag in WEC quite regularly. If the drivers transgress a second time they get a drive through or stop go. I think they should use it more often in F1 for a whole host of things the drivers do wrong.
 

RasputinLives

Leave me alone I'm on Smoko
Contributor
They do the same with the black and white flag in F2 and F3 too. You get away with it twice in F3. Seem to recall Lotterer was shown it in Formula E too on that day he was total rubbish.

I thought that and 'theres a massive chunk of your car hanging off' was what the black and white flag was for!
 

F1Brits_90

Race Winner
Vettel making the sort of mistake that a rookie would be ashamed of.

I said that watching, saying this is a 4 time world champion supposed to be 1 of the greatest, talked about in likes of legends of Prost, Fangio, Hamilton & Schumacher. he makes a amateur mistake again, that you be hammering Russell if he made & then drove into the side of stroll like an idiot.
 

Johnny Carwash

Champion Elect
Contributor
Was great to see Michael Masi come out and explain the reasoning behind the penalty decisions with Anthony Davidson at the sky pad after the race.
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RasputinLives

Leave me alone I'm on Smoko
Contributor
Ruslan Ricciardo and Hulkenberg were fairly evenly matched and close together but then Hulkerberg pitted just before the VSC and Ricciardo during it. Make a difference of about 20 seconds between them from what I recall.

Kvyat was on to jump both of them by the way as he pitted during first VSC and they didn't but then be caused the second one.
 
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Ruslan

Podium Finisher
I think that you are making a very good point here. Let me just say that I'm glad that Leclerc won, in fairness I think that Hamilton deserved to win and so I would have been happier if Hamilton had won, but another Ferrari win is (apparently) good for the sport.

I don't fault Leclerc for winning, but I do wonder if he would have won if he was driving a different car.

I also struggle with the black and white flag to Leclerc, if he did something wrong he should have been punished, if he did nothing wrong they shouldn't have shown him that flag. Also I think that if you have been given the black and white flag and you breach another rule you should be black flagged, and when he cut the chicane they just noted that he broke the rule: again either cutting the chicane under those circumstance is right (and I sort of beleieve that it probably is) or it's not and he should have been punished. Saying as hey did that he was a bit naughty but not punishing him despite the previous black and white flag IMHO doesn't look very logical.

The sudden appearance of the black and white flag was odd. It has been a long time since I have seen one in F1....so long, that I actually don't remember if I have ever seen one in F1 since the 1980s. In principal, I am not opposed to them, except.....if the block or move wins you the race, then why would you not do it if the penalty was only a warning? Black and white flags are not the best tools to use late in the race when people are fighting over the lead.

In the end, it is clear that formula one has not solved it two fundamental problems with the rules...which is....1) they do not have a clear set of rules as to what is allowed and not allowed and 2) they do not have consistent stewarding either. The fact that we could even be suspicious that the ruling was different because it was Ferrari is an indication of how much they have failed in this regard. This series still behaves like a club sport as opposed to a professional enterprise.

Anyhow, it does not appear they have learned the fundamental lessons from Canada.

Talking about the stewarding I also disagree with the penalties inflicted to Vettel and to Stroll: they both did the same mistake, IMHO they should have received the same punishment

Well, I actually felt they were too harsh on "poor" Lance Stroll. There was probably no way he could have even seen the car coming up.
 

F1Brits_90

Race Winner
another thrilling race, that's 5 brilliant races & 1 alright race in the last 6, I couldn't take people know from the ive had soft spot for him, only have to look at the Leclerc thread where I risked a restraining order, ;) because Lewis has got this title sown up, so he doesn't he the need the points, I was so happy for Leclerc that drive under the greatest of pressure, Hamilton hunting you down & the expectation of tifosi hoping that the 9yr drought would end (which the last time that happened as 1979 - 1988) was the drive of a champion. although that radio at end reminded me of Full Time when sheff utd finally beat palace. same screams of relief more than anything

on his drive I thought 1st at roggia chicane was close 2nd was maybe over the line but I don't blame the desperation it Ferrari its monza & its 5 soon to be 6 time world champion on his tail. but I like the idea of a black/white flag or yellow card because it should clean up the racing because its you get warning, teams tell the drivers & told if you do it again. you will be penalised, drivers are less angry because its not penalised straight away. you stop consistent questionable tactics he abided by rules got desperate once kept to rules for rest of race. as Leclerc said in Austria with max, I didn't realise these were rules I will race to these rules

Vettel Vettel Vettel :givemestrength:, this is a 4 time world champion supposed to be 1 of the greatest F1 drivers, talked about in likes of legends of Prost, Fangio, Hamilton & Schumacher. he does that, you be hammering Russell if he did that & I think the penalty was spot on because of course both should've been penalised but vettel had to get more because drove into the side of stroll like an idiot never even tried to brake. cause the whole thing which if he hadn't have been so impatient, stroll incident wouldn't have happened which I can see why stroll went for that gap as there was long time between cars. right back on vettel also get this right it was "vettel who" for the Ferrari fans & management at the end of the race. now 1 good race in 13 months, kimi finished 2018 on top, Leclerc is by far the better driver in 2019, lets get this right if Vettel doesn't improve end of 2019 or 2020 he's either gone or has to be happy to play the Kimi, Irvine or Barrichello role

everyone else every good race from Riccardio & Renault overall, 4th & 5th best team result since 2008 Japanese gp, they obviously have a very good low downforce package but the high downforce ones is there weakness. finally (because ive gone on enough :D ) the tv didn't probally catch it bit max verstappen had a stonking drive so unlucky extremely cautious but still caught out, then managed to make up the 23 sec deficit get up to 10th before anyone had pitted, great damage limitation
 
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220

Banned
I think one thing people are missing with the Vettel and Stroll re entries is where they were stopped. Vettel was off the track on the grass, Stroll half on the track at the apex of a corner.
 

Ruslan

Podium Finisher
I think one thing people are missing with the Vettel and Stroll re entries is where they were stopped. Vettel was off the track on the grass, Stroll half on the track at the apex of a corner.
Exactly. Stroll was already a danger to cars on the track. He needed to move.
 

Angel

Race Winner
Contributor
I am a Leclerc fan and I dislike Hamilton as you all know, however I kind of felt like the stewards were too lenient on Leclerc yesterday if I'm honest. When he pushed Hamilton off track I was amazed he didn't get a penalty, then he cut across the chicane and although he didn't gain an advantage in that the positions didn't change, he also didn't lose out for his mistake like maybe he should have and I was amazed again that they let him get away with that too. I was torn really, I so wanted him to win but I didn't 100% feel like he totally deserved it in some ways.

If that is how it's going to be and the stewards treat everyone the same that's fair enough, but if they're not, that for me was wrong.

As for Vettel, what can I say? My family have been saying for a while that he's driving like an idiot and needs to give up already if he can't do any better than that. I'm slowly coming round to the idea that they might be right. It's awful watching him making so many stupid and unforced errors lately.
 
I don't fault Leclerc for winning, but I do wonder if he would have won if he was driving a different car.



The sudden appearance of the black and white flag was odd. It has been a long time since I have seen one in F1....so long, that I actually don't remember if I have ever seen one in F1 since the 1980s. In principal, I am not opposed to them, except.....



Well, I actually felt they were too harsh on "poor" Lance Stroll. There was probably no way he could have even seen the car coming up.

I think that if yesterday Leclerc had been driving a different car he would probably have ended up with a couple of punishments (not that I would necessarily agree with such punishments though)

The black and white flag is perfectly fine with me, but when you apply a rule you need consistency, if the black and white flag means "you have been naughty and broke a rule and be careful that if you do it again we'll get you" then you have to apply that standard to everyone, the first breach of the rules if a slap on your wrists and the second time they hand you a penalty. My problem with that is that it seems as if everyone was punished for their first breach and one driver was told to be careful. IMHO that's inconsistent. Just to clarify I watched the race on Sky Italia and they agreed that it was rather odd (including the fact that the stewards "noted" Leclerc cutting the chicane), I don't think that at Sky Italia they are biased against Ferrari, especially when one of the pundits is Marc Gene who to my knowledge still works for Ferrari

Regarding Vettel and Stroll they both were punished (I believe) for re-entering the track in an unsafe manner. If that is the rule they both breached they should have been given the same panalty. Whether their action caused an accident is irrelevant, I'm afraid that is not how the law works. Also I don't think that Gasly would agree that Stroll's actions didn't cause any harm. I feel for poor Stroll that was put into a difficult situation but he made a mistake, if they punish that kind of mistake harshly (I have several doubts on the actions normally taken under such circumstances but that is another matter) then they should be consistent. My problem with the comments that I have seen is that it seems as if the majority accept that a driver has to be punished for making a bona fide driving error, that IMHO is wrong
 

220

Banned
One thing that seems to over looked with unsafe re entries is how much blame should those racing carry.
Double waved yellows is meant to mean a hazard on track that may require you to stop. Obviously if contact is made with the car re entering under double waved yellow then those racing have ignored the flags.
 

Dartman

Podium Finisher
Vettel's punishment was somewhat weak, he drove into Stroll, Stroll was half on the track, the question is which side would Gastly have gone if Stroll stayed put, could he have missed or would he gone behind further off the track? Perhaps for double yellows he was giong too fast.
 
double waved yellows mean nothing nowadays, no one gets punished for ingoring them, the powers that be know this perfectly well and have accepted such behavior, any time a marshall needs to get anywhere near the track they deploy the Virtual SC, yesterday they deployed it for Sainz and Kvyat despite the fact that they both parked their cars very close to a gap in the barriers, far from the racing line and close to a marshalls' position. A few years ago a single yellow flag would have been more than enough
 

F1Brits_90

Race Winner
these are 2 of the italian newspapers today, this is got to be 1 of lowest moments of vettels career. because not only because he is seeing someone else nick his dream, you could see it in his face where binotto had to bring him in to the "party" & then he stayed for 1 picture, sneaked out of back. he came as 4x time world champion to emulate his hero Michael Schumacher & this newcomer has come in not only probally stolen the number 1 within a 2/3 of season. but stolen his dream, thinking that should be me taking that adulation. now he has been resorted to footnote as his teammate is all over newspapers

it would be interesting circle, Italian GP capapulted his career into what we know & Italian gp may have just signalled beginning of the end

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Izumi

Banned
Yes, it looks like Ferrari has written Sebastian off and out. I cannot predict whether damage is permanent, but it is possibility and cannot be dismissed. On Ferrari website Vettel is hardly mentioned after last race at Monza.
 
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