Grand Prix 2018 Hungarian Grand Prix Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

So on we go to Budapest (well Mogyoród but anyways) for the 33rd Hungarian Grand Prix. Its the 32nd to be held at the Hungaroring in a row. There is only Monaco and Monza that have been on the calendar for a longer span without any gap. That makes this race a true F1 classic although most won't call it that. The boffins over at wikipedia state 'Due to the nature of the track, narrow, twisty and often dusty because of under-use, the Hungarian Grand Prix is associated with processional races'. Clip the Apex however says differently with Hungary winning the best race of the year more times that any other track. Lets face it there have been some classics. Button winning in a Honda, Heiki winning his 'first of many', Danny Ric showing the 'ladies' how its done, Damon Hill making an Arrows car look like a world beater, Boutson inventing the Trulli train and one of the best wins of all time from Nigel Mansell. Will this years race live up to those standards? I guess we're going to find out.

Hungary itself is a very interesting and beautiful country. It was first defined as a nation in the 9th century, having what it describes as its golden era up until 1526. Then the country was occupied by the Ottoman empire which lasted all the way up until 1699. Hungary then came under Habsberg rule. You might think this has nothing to do with F1 but you would be wrong. Currently racing in F3 is one Ferdinand Habsberg who is a direct descendant from that royal family. Ferdinand is attempting to get into F1 so all that is relevant honest. Under the Habsberg's it was part of the great Austro-Hungarian Empire but after being on the losing side of WWI it was split into two. The borders defined for it then (1920) remain the borders it had today. At the start of WWII Hungary decided to form an alliance with the axis powers. It seems old habits die hard as last year the Hungarian track formed another axis alliance as German Seb Vettel took the win there in the Italian Ferrari. If you are my age and a 20th century history nut Hungary is most famous for its 1956 revolution where students riled up the population to overthrow the puppet government put in place by the Soviet Union. This seemed like it was going to be a success with the USSR even announcing it was going to withdraw troops. However they changed their mind and invaded Budapest and other parts of the country. The Hungarian held out for 6 days with 2500 being killed. 200,000 fled the country as the iron curtain came down. The USSR won but it lost all at the same time as their actions largely turned Western Marxists away from their cause. Talk of the revolution was completely banned from the Hungarian population meaning a whole generation grew up not knowing it even happened. I once met a Hungarian gentlemen who was a qualified historian who told me that until 1990 he had never heard of the 1956 revolution. Just to put that into context, if you'd been in Hungary in 1989 the average citizens would have been able to tell you more about Theirry Boutson and a Williams Renault than they could about their countries own history.

Speaking of Mr Boutson and the day he conquered Hungary - With all these he said/she said calls for penalties on the radio these day I always think back to that 1990 race and a move by Senna on Nannini. Watch it here at 1m 25 and tell me if you think there was a penalty.


The answer is no there wasn't. It wasn't even mention. it was just part of racing. Nannini retired and Senna went on to get 2nd. Later on it the footage Berger tries the same move on Mansell and puts them both out. To say we are living in a different era is an understatement.

Anyways thats my ramblings about Hungary. Its been a topsey turvey kind of year so I'm venturing no predictions for the up coming race other than it will be dominated by Ferrari, Mercedes and Red Bull. Lewis Hamilton has won here more times than anyone else and comes off the back of his greatest win ever. Of course its only his greatest ever win since the last greatest ever win he had but good all the same. The script should say he comes here on a high and kicks everyones bum. Script isn't always followed this year though.
 
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I agree that the race wasn't a classic, I fear that we'll have to disagree on Vettel and Bottas

1 Hamilton was lucky, managed the race well and his team mate was willing to humiliate himself to help him, Hamilton in my eyes is one of the luckiest man on earth

2 I don't see many issues in his driving yesterday, he was very fast, he did what he had to do but was very unlucky, the fact that he lost a position to Bottas due to a problem with a wheel no locking properly cannot be his fault. I think that without that problem he could have won the race. Now coming to your remarks: regarding the backmarkers I remember him complaining (mildly) when for about one and a half lap Ocon held him up, costing him about 2 seconds if I remember correctly: in fairness I think that he had a point. Ocon is a great driver but someone should explain to him that when you go to any lenghts to please someone there is the risk that in the process you overdo it, and IMHO Ocon is on the edge on that respect, helping his employer (not his team, that is different) is one thing, going too far quite another. Anyway, Vettel and no chance to pass Bottas, he couldn't get in his slipstream even with the DRS open, Bottas did everything that could be done to block him. And consider that whereas Vettel had everything to lose Bottas had nothing to lose. Also Vettel knew that if he got very close he would risk destroying his tyres. On top of that whenever Vettel gets anywhere near a Mercedes he gets some sort of punishment, whereas the Mercedes drivers can take a very liberal approach to hard racing the Ferraris. All Vettel could do was wait for Bottas' rear tyres to deteriorate and try a move, and that's what he did. Regarding his move on Bottas I don't see what he could have done differently, he had to be aggressive because Bottas was being very aggressive and he had to lose the door. I'm not sure that this was a racing incident, it looked to me as if Bottas had some score to settle with Vettel, I wouldn't say that it was deliberate but Bottas took a punt fully knowing that if it go wrong it would have been good for his team

3 Kimi did ok, he was given a strategy to force Mercedes to react and bring Bottas out of the question and that's what happened, pity Ferrari screwed Vettel's pit stop. In clean air Vettel was faster than Kimi (Vettel did his fastest lap on lap 70, 1:20.056, a couple of tenths faster than Kimi's best, which happened significantly earlier on lap 55 (with fresher tyres). In a sense Kimi cathcing up Vettel made him look much faster than he really was, but Vettel was slow because he was being blocked by Bottas

4 I wouldn't call Bottas a good soldier, yesterday he looked more like someone desperate to me bcause something doesn't quite stack up in Bottas race. After his pit stop he was doing 1:23s, as soon as Vettel was behind him he started doing 1:21.5, why? I'm sure that the pit wall gave him some sort of engine boost but that doesn't account for 1 and a half second. So maybe he was "waiting" for Vettel to catch him in order to slow him down. He then did all he could to hold up Vettel, and that's fine with me, but his coming together with Vettel doesn't really look like just any other racing accident, and that is because he was behind Vettel's car, not beside him, he did a kamikaze move and got away with it, not even a reprimand, which is rather inconsistent if you consider that in France Vettel was punished (and vilified) for something far less serious. He then tried to resist to Ricciardo despite the fact that with his front wing damaged he didn't have much grip at the front and so could not brake late. The 10 second penalty looks farcical to me, on the one hand IMHO if rule consistency is something to be taken into account he should have been punished for hitting Vettel, on the other 10 seconds was a very lenient penalty. But there you go, this is no longer a matter of double standards every now and then, this is stating to look like an accepted trend. I wonder what James Allison has to say about Bottas's driving into Vettel after his comments on Kimi's mistake a few races back

5 championship is over, Hamilton has been very lucky, Vettel made too many mistakes and the powers that be are totally biased in favour of Mercedes

6 Red Bull are a disgrace, Horner's request for an apology by Renault was proposterous

7 I think that Gasly is good but not as good as Leclerc, and it's a shame that Alonso (and Ricciardo) cannot join either Ferrari or Mercedes

Apart assertion regarding championship status, I like your race assessment. It is going to be difficult and for some of us nerve wrecking, but it's not over until it's over. Could be 2012 all over again. (Sorry for borrowing Brexit slogan.)
 
6 Red Bull are a disgrace, Horner's request for an apology by Renault was proposterous

7 I think that Gasly is good but not as good as Leclerc, and it's a shame that Alonso (and Ricciardo) cannot join either Ferrari or Mercedes

I'll skip the parts we disagree on ;)

Apparently Verstappen restated his comments in a post-race interview: GPGuide | News - Verstappen slams 'sh-t' Renault engine

Christian Horner seems like one of the nicer guys out there.....except he seems to spoil his drivers. These are kids in the 20s. Horner, of course, is simply encouraging this talk and saying the same thing himself.

I don't know how to compare Gasly with Leclerc.....but I to am more excited about Leclerc.
 
Apparently Verstappen restated his comments in a post-race interview: GPGuide | News - Verstappen slams 'sh-t' Renault engine

Christian Horner seems like one of the nicer guys out there.....except he seems to spoil his drivers. These are kids in the 20s. Horner, of course, is simply encouraging this talk and saying the same thing himself.

Everybody at Red Bull seem to be keen on tarnishing Renault, they have done that for years, maybe Max has learned from them, when they win it's their merit, when they lose it's Renault's fault, it has been going on for years. And Renault was forced by regulation to supply their PUs to them, I bet at Renault they can't wait for the 2019 and no longer having to work with such people

Horner seems to be one of the most reasonable at RBR, but the problem is that he's not the boss and has to take some very awkward positions at times to please Marko and Mateschitz.
 
Everybody at Red Bull seem to be keen on tarnishing Renault, they have done that for years, maybe Max has learned from them, when they win it's their merit, when they lose it's Renault's fault, it has been going on for years. And Renault was forced by regulation to supply their PUs to them, I bet at Renault they can't wait for the 2019 and no longer having to work with such people

Horner seems to be one of the most reasonable at RBR, but the problem is that he's not the boss and has to take some very awkward positions at times to please Marko and Mateschitz.

Abiteboul: We stopped reading what Horner says since 2015
 
Once again it's time for Sky's crazy unexplainable driver ratings.

Hungarian GP driver ratings

A 7 for Bottas due to the end incidents despite the fact he played the perfect spoiler on less than perfect strategy in order to give Lewis a comfy race is just down right insulting.
 
This has been a great and interesting season so far and I expect it to keep going that way. Lewis has won on some tracks where even I, as a Lewis fan, predicted that he would not win and has lost on others that I thought would be an easy win. The Ferrari is the better car now and Vettel is an amazing driver so I expect a strong comeback for the last half of the season. I don't think Lewis will win the WDC but I still hope he does
 
My apology if this was already discussed, and I haven't seen it. Bottas incurred post-race penalties (10 sec was added to his race time - uhh, pain) and 2 points (just 2, really?) to his rap sheet for hitting DR.

Bottas probably was not investigated for incident involving Vettel. (Scanning FiA's info., I didn't see it.) Vettel asserted it was a racing incident, however more suspicious observers have somewhat different ideas about the same subject, and Bottas is not coming out of it smelling refreshingly clean.
 
I think it's all a little harsh on Bottas. I can't see what he could have done different in the first incident (if anything Vettel came across him) and the second incident was down to the damage from the first incident.
 
Interesting read from Joyleon. On the day Martin Brundle had the exact opposite view so will be interested to read his take on it.

I still think Bottas is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. If the biggest criticism is that he shouldn't have attempted to repass Vettel then it is in stark contrast to Bahrain when he was critisied for not overtaking him. He was put in a very difficult position to do a job for Merc and I think he did what he needed too.
 
Seriously, this was never an issue when cars would explode and the driver seriously injured if they touched each other.

What they need to fit is some sort of electronic touch pads all over the car so that if they bump at anything above a certain G level then the car just grinds to a halt. That way they wouldn't be tempted to play bumper cars anymore. Then we wouldn't have the stewards having to debate what is, or isn't a race incident.

I'm so bored of the constant debate (from pundits, not on here btw) surrounding who bumped who and why and what was the underlying motivation. Either they stop hitting each other or they stop being penalised for it. At least in the BTCC the attitude is 'rubbing is racing'

Sorry, feeling very grumpy today.
 
Martin Brundle did admit he blamed Vettel for the incident at first during the race, I assume he's changed his mind now, though I haven't read his column so I can't say for sure.

Maybe Bottas was just trying to pay Vettel back for when they had that incident at the start of the race in France. Who knows what was in his mind, well Bottas does obviously, but we sure don't. It's all speculation on our parts isn't it?

cider_and_toast is right, there should be something to deter cars banging into one another like it all the time. The cars are safe enough these days it's not that big of a deal like it used to be which is as it should be, but it's also F1 not Demolition Derby!
 
Bottas could not creating a comfortable advantage before Vettel.
So he was defending his position 25 laps against Vettel who was on more new and faster tyres.
May be Valteri could be in other situation if had first pit later like Vettel or had second pit like Raikkonen.
But this is unlikely, given its pace in the first segment.
In any case, the assumptions that Bottas purposely was blocking or
even more specially hit to Vettel to help Hamilton are nonsense.
The proof is that by the time of the incident, Hamilton's advantage was so great
that there was no point in risking anything for Bottas.
 
My apology if this was already discussed, and I haven't seen it. Bottas incurred post-race penalties (10 sec was added to his race time - uhh, pain) and 2 points (just 2, really?) to his rap sheet for hitting DR.

Bottas probably was not investigated for incident involving Vettel. (Scanning FiA's info., I didn't see it.) Vettel asserted it was a racing incident, however more suspicious observers have somewhat different ideas about the same subject, and Bottas is not coming out of it smelling refreshingly clean.
Actually, I think this is reasonable.
 
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