Grand Prix 2011 Singapore Grand Prix Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

Getting closer and closer

Every time we say that Vettel won't win, he comes up trumps with a flawless performance and Monza was no different, taking pole, won the race and put a smart move on Alonso which won him the race.

Ferrari have pretty much admitted defeat and are stopping development on their frankly dissapointing 2011 car which so far has only taken one win at the rain affected British Grand Prix which was also the only track where the EBD was banned which was negatively affecting McLaren and Red Bull more than it was Ferrari. It means that Fernando Alonso will have gone 5 years without adding to his 2 world championships which he took at Renault in 2005 and 2006 and he will be more determined than ever to fix that soon. Felipe Massa looks to be just going through the motions and is a shadow of his pre 2009 self.

Jenson Button continued his strong second half of the season with a podium at Monza to further assert himself as the number one driver at McLaren, indeed his performances recently have been putting his team mate in the shade and a series of overtakes in Spa and Monza have showed that he has the mantle to be the leading driver at McLaren.

In contrast Lewis Hamilton has been somewhat troubled recently, after a crash in Spa, a spin in Hungary and just 1 podium in 8 races, he was notably less agressive in Monza, particularly when trying to overtake Schumacher who arguably should have been penalised for agressive defending which other drivers have been penalised for recently.

Apart from over agressive defending Schumacher has been driving a lot better recently and has been up at the front on a more consistent basis and surely he must be close to a podium now? Rosberg has been very unlucky recently, a good strategy in Monza was ruined when he was t-boned by the missile that was Liuzzi who was given a penalty for his spin, he claimed that he was pushed off by Kovalainen but this wasn't true and the stewards took a dim view of him.

Toro Rosso have enjoyed a very strong second half to the year with another double points finish in Monza with Alguesari continuing his Lazarus act from near expulsion to take his season total to 16, 3 ahead of his team mate Buemi who took a solitary point in the sister Toro Rosso, both will be looking to get the upper hand on each other as the season draws to a close and Riccardo in the rear view mirrors when the 2012 contracts get drawn up.

Renault showed a resurgance in Monza with Bruno Senna taking his first F1 points in 9th, he might have finished higher but he was caught up in the first corner crash which forced Petrov to retire after both cars had made it into Q3, but with Singapore being a totally different track, it will be a good test on whether the last upgrades for the car have worked.

Singapore is the first night race in F1 but apart from 2008 which was affected by deliebarate crashing and race fixing, the races have been rather dull with little action throughout the race and many fans criticising the circuit despite decent overtaking figures.

For Galahads superb write up, see here http://cliptheapex.com/pages/marina-bay-street-circuit/
 
I am just saying that factually you cannot say Jenson had the legs all weekend as you did

Weekend includes quali and the second run is almost always better than the first, all being equal, the track is a little better etc

So we cannot say Button had the legs over q3 when the times were virtually identical but Lewis had a disadvantage

No need for debate, just pointing out
 
I'm not getting into this debate with you Cook. Jenson had a faster race lap time than Lewis by a clear 2 seconds so yeah he did have the legs on him..

Are you talking about at the end of the race when Lewis was doing his 2nd stint on the same set of used tyres and Jenson was on fresh options?

Jensen and Lewis weren't racing each other. they were in two very different races so I don't know how you think it's sensible to compare their lap-times as an indication of their potential pace.
 
Are you talking about at the end of the race when Lewis was doing his 2nd stint on the same set of used tyres and Jenson was on fresh options?

Jensen and Lewis weren't racing each other. they were in two very different races so I don't know how you think it's sensible to compare their lap-times as an indication of their potential pace.

I'm talking about the entire race. Are you telling me thats not a good way to judge speed? Both of them had times in the race when they had clear track and fresh tyres. Yes I know about the fuel loads and the whole 'effort' factor but 2 seconds?

Why is it that when Lewis has a worse weekend than someone there is always a big long line of people making excuses for him? Button was faster than him this weekend - end of - Button came 2nd, Lewis came 5th. Now if I was saying Button has and will always be faster than Lewis I can understand you arguing but just accept your fave driver got beat with good grace this weekend. Lets hope he accepts it and learns from it.
 
Not really what I meant Sly. I'm no fool and I know Lewis will probably beat Jenson 7 times out of 10 but he is not invincible and he does get beat its just everytime he does there is always a list of excuses as long as the morning traffic queue on the A52 as to why it wasn't his fault and he didn't really get beat.

Jenson out did him this weekend - end of - say well done Jenson and move on from it don't try and make excuses with stats, what if's maybe's and probables because its all pie in the sky.
 
Not really what I meant Sly. I'm no fool and I know Lewis will probably beat Jenson 7 times out of 10 but he is not invincible and he does get beat its just everytime he does there is always a list of excuses as long as the morning traffic queue on the A52 as to why it wasn't his fault and he didn't really get beat.

Jenson out did him this weekend - end of - say well done Jenson and move on from it don't try and make excuses with stats, what if's maybe's and probables because its all pie in the sky.

As true as that maybe Raspputin' I do sympathise with the Hamilton fans since if he didn't have his problem in qualifying he would have (I am quite certain about this) beaten Button on race day, Button beats Hamilton in two dry races this season and there's a big "hoo ha", and for both times he has beaten Hamilton on track, it's not been down to "pure" Jenson beating him, it's been Hamilton's poor luck.

I’ve tried to change the subject twice already lol.

Well done mate :thumbsup: but I have just brought it back since I got sucked in :givemestrength:
 
Not really what I meant Sly. I'm no fool and I know Lewis will probably beat Jenson 7 times out of 10 but he is not invincible and he does get beat its just everytime he does there is always a list of excuses as long as the morning traffic queue on the A52 as to why it wasn't his fault and he didn't really get beat.

Jenson out did him this weekend - end of - say well done Jenson and move on from it don't try and make excuses with stats, what if's maybe's and probables because its all pie in the sky.

dont forget lewis had 1 less set of tyres to use,he also pitted at different times and had alot more traffic to get through during the race.whereas jenson for the most part had a clear track infront of him and only backmarkers to overtake.and im pretty sure,during the one time lewis had a clear track ahead of him he started doing fastest laps.
then theres quali,lewis would have outqualified jenson.so comparing each drivers laptimes is pretty ridiculous.
 
As true as that maybe Raspputin' I do sympathise with the Hamilton fans since if he didn't have his problem in qualifying he would have (I am quite certain about this) beaten Button on race day, Button beats Hamilton in two dry races this season and there's a big "hoo ha", and for both times he has beaten Hamilton on track, it's not been down to "pure" Jenson beating him, it's been Hamilton's poor luck.

I agree at Singapore regarding the puncture and fuel problems, we would have seen a very different result I think. However I've always been interested in the whole consistency argument. Look at Keke Rosberg. It is a risky strategy reliant on others misjudgement or misfortune. I have no doubt Hamilton in similar conditions would kick Button's backside but what we are seeing is a strategy that didn't work last year for Button, at all, but is paying off this year.
 
then theres quali,lewis would have outqualified jenson.so comparing each drivers laptimes is pretty rediculous.

How do you know? What's to say that Hamilton didn't do his fastest lap on the lap he ran? Several times this season, drivers have failed to improve on their final run..... This is a conjecture - nothing more! Ok then, I'm going to add a conjecture - if Button's reverse gear hadn't failed to work on Friday, he'd have qualified on pole..... Can I have that one? No?
 
I already posted the lap chart...

f1-2011-singapore-grand-prix-lap-chart-png.2454
 
And saying something that didn't happen would have happened isn't "rediculous"?

I think, what he means is that comparing them without considering the context is ridiculous (maybe even frickingly) Tyres, traffic

For example Lewis had a broken front wing for a lap, now I am sure that would have caused him to have a slower laptime than Jenson who was in clean air with a perfect front wing

If we didnt know this, then we might conclude by looking at the laptimes that Lewis had suddenly become a slow driver, this might then be ridiculous

But I am just speculating, no need to debate the meaning of ridiculous, and definitely no need to debate what happened to Lewis in the race as thats been done alread many times
 
What do you estimate the stats on that are, assuming no external factors like rain traffic etc?

say 10 drivers over 10 races, 100 iterations, how many second runs were genuinely slower?

say 5, more or less?

The times were very very close but you cannot say for certain Hamilton would have done a perfect run and beaten his previous time. Button had a bloody good qualifying session and seemed happier with his car.
 
Which is exactly what I was trying to say originally but got jumped on by the "button can't possibley ever be quicker than Hamilton ever ever" brigade.
 
Doesn’t seem to be a Ted Kravitz from the pitlane this week, shame I enjoy those.

I like Ted too
But at the last race/quali, the first time he was on air..at Mclaren garage, he started with..."Lewis has got new yellow diamond ear rings". Would any one be interested in that?
I thought ...who gives a :censored:about earings......
These sort of comments trigger off LH circus comments.
I don't like beards or ear rings but that is Lewis' personal choice..
I switch on to see the racing.
And hope it will be Fair...........not a circus
 
Thanks Artist.

So that confirms Vettel wasn't pushing at the end then.
As suspected, he just cruises at the end of races to save the engine and tyres and to minimise risk.
 
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