Grand Prix 2011 Hungarian Grand Prix Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

Who was saying 2011 was boring?

It's amazing how a few non Red Bull dominated races can change the complexion of F1 and suddenly it's exciting again. However before we get too carried away, Vettel still holds a massive points lead and despite a poor (by his standards) race in Germany, he is still hot favourite as the F1 circus rolls into Hungary.

Hungary isn't known for it's exciting races (apart from 2006 possibly thanks to the weather) due to the dust bowl and lack of overtaking oppurtunities, but if 2011 is anything to go by, the phrase 'no overtaking' has been thrown out of the dictionary.

Despite recent set backs Red Bull will be favourites to bounce back at a circuit which suits them to a tee with weather conditions that will be beneficial to Vettel who struggled with grip at the chilly Nurburgring. However Ferrari and Mclaren have shown that they won't just stand still and let Red Bull walk to the championship with Hamilton and Alonso winning in the last 2 grand prix.

Indeed Mclaren seemed to be in trouble going into the German GP as they were off the pace of the Red Bulls and Ferraris, but in Hamiltons hands the car made a miracle recovery to not only take a front row position ahead of Vettel, but take the teams third win of the season after very stiff competition from Alonso and Webber. Is this the start of the established teams fightback?

Even beleagured Ferrari driver Massa has showed improved form recently with two 5th placed positions in the last 2 races but they could have easily been 2 fourth places had it not been for a strong defensive rearguard from Hamilton in Silverstone and a pit stop mess up in Germany which enabled Vettel to get past on the last lap. As Ferrari plan to take the fight to Red Bull, they will need Massa to take points off Vettel and Webber if Alonso is to have any chance of a miracle fightback.

Mercedes are in a league of their own at the moment, but not in a good way. They are faster than the likes of Renault and Force India, but slower than Ferrari, Red Bull and Mclaren and the 7th/8th place almost has a Mercedes name penned in if there aren't any incidents, (which knowing Schumacher is rare)

Renault have dropped off badly after a strong start to the season and after a crash from Heidfeld and a poor race from Petrov, they now find themselves picking up the scraps in the midfield for 5th place in the championship as Mercedes start to pull away from the black and gold outfit, maybe a tweak of the exhaust might bring them better fortunes in Hungary.

One person who drove a great race in Germany but hardly got any recognition was Adrian Sutil who drove probably the best race of the German drivers. 6th place after a strong qualifying will no doubt relieve the pressure that had been building on him and will show to Di Resta that he won't have things his own way at Force India and that Hulkenberg might have to wait a while for a race seat.

No doubt that there won't be any uncertainties about the weather this weekend as more often than not Hungary provides a race weekend with 30 degree sunshine with not a cloud to be seen, apart from the 2006 race which was notable for Jenson Buttons first win in the Honda.

For Galahads superb circuit write up see here http://cliptheapex.com/pages/hungaroring/

 

[RickD]

Ray - I usually wouldn't bother to reply, especially as I know you don't bother to listen and it is like flogging a dead horse with you as far as facts are concerned, but please watch the race again without thinking of what is going to happen next and honestly tell me that it's not hindsight on your part to put Hamilton on a different strategy at the time he pits for his SS tyres (at that time, the quickest strategy still as it wasn't raining and there were no predictions of rain). I would not believe you if you were to change his strategy unless you said it live on chat at the time.

Yes, I am happy that Button won, as far as I am concerned, the WDC is over this year anyway. I would have preferred a McLaren 1-2, but it wasn't to be.. After the spin, there was no way Lewis was going to win the race. I know people can't accept that, but thats the way it is.

 

[Slyboogy]

You can either blame the team putting on the Super softs on Hamilton's car, or the weather, as before it started raining he was pulling a gap, he had a 8.5s lead over Button before he spun. And the gap was much lesser than that before he pitted.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

Ray ... honestly tell me that it's not hindsight on your part to put Hamilton on a different strategy at the time he pits for his SS tyres (at that time, the quickest strategy still as it wasn't raining and there were no predictions of rain). I would not believe you if you were to change his strategy unless you said it live on chat at the time.

Rick, with all due respect, you're not taking what I said into account in my above post about the timing differential of the pit stops between the two...here:

I already stated that you don't put the leader of the race - who also happened to be best placed in the WDC - on a riskier strategy, especially when the pit stop differentials in terms of laps was 1 lap at the end of the first stint...and 1 lap at the end of the second stint

Do you not understand what i'm trying to get at?

I mean, it isn't as if Hamilton was stopping 3 or 4 laps before Button at the end of the 1st stint....and then 6 or 7 or 8 laps before Button on the second stint, right?

They were stopping within 1 lap of each other up to what turned out to be their 3rd stops on lap 40 and 42.

So...can you kindly explain why they were stopping within 1 lap of each other at the end of the first 2 stints ... and then 2 laps at the end of the third stint - with the strategies, then, having a sudden and complete divergence?

That's not hindsight, my friend, is it?

Wouldn't you normally divide up your plan relatively 'evenly' - accounting, of course, for fuel loads diminishing - as opposed to having such a sudden divergence?

 

[KekeTheKing]

He wore out his tyres to quickly which lead to his spin before he tried to donut and nearly collected Di Resta and Button

Pretty difficult to get 3 things factually wrong in a single sentence, but you've done it!

Worn tires had nothing to do with the spin. He was the first one to come upon the wettest part of the circuit after a brief downpour, having gone off line, soaking his tires just prior to that in order to pass a backmarker. The fact that he caught Jenson up and took the lead from him on Lap 51 should be more than enough evidence that his tires were still in decent condition.

He didn't try to do a donut. He successfully completed one, getting his car pointed back in the right direction almost immediately. And anybody that wants to take an honest look at all the footage will come to the conclusion that by spinning round, he actually made his car EASIER to avoid. It may look hair-raising, but where was di Resta going to go if coming upon a stationary Hamilton, that's right, the grass!

Finally, there was never any danger of Lewis collecting Jenson.

Certainly not Hamilton's finest hour, but I can't help but feel this entire scenario should have been avoided by the number crunchers at "Mission Control"

 

[KekeTheKing]

After the spin, there was no way Lewis was going to win the race.

Before the spin there was very, very little chance that Lewis was going to win anyways. He was always going to be fighting with Alonso for P3 at best after they put him on that strategy at Lap 41.

For me, that's what made the spin and ensuing penalty relatively easy to handle. His race had already been decided.

The truly astonishing thing would have been if Lewis had made the 4 stopper work. There was ZERO evidence that it would.

 

[KekeTheKing]

Why isn't Lewis questioning McLaren about how they went about the tyres on their third pitstops on Lap 40 and 42?

Because there is absolutely nothing to gain by doing this in public. I'm sure he'll have some questions behind closed doors, but inciting things on the BBC is the wrong way to go about.

Plus, I'm sure Lewis knows that millions of fans across the internets will spend days (weeks) analyzing the shortcomings of his team's rather curious strategy decision.

I'm rather glad he didn't comment on that publicly.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

I think i've basically said enough with no one on the other 'side' being able to explain my last post.

Suffice it to say, even if everything had gone 'perfectly' (including the last pitstop which is by no means a given), then Lewis would have still been behind Button and would have had to over-take Button for the win. That's hardly a riskless propostion. It's, in fact, a riskier proposition to where he was (i.e. in command of the race).

 

[Jen]

I think i've basically said enough with no one on the other 'side' being able to explain my last post.

Are you conceding or just pausing Ray?

 

[Cookinflatsix]

Why isn't Lewis questioning McLaren about how they went about the tyres on their third pitstops on Lap 40 and 42?

Why isn't Lewis asking why the two of them were stopping within 1 lap of each other at the end of both of the first 2 stints and then he's expected to suddenly go onto an extra stint inspite of only a 2 lap

Why didn't the BBC commentators ask these questions amidst the fawning? If Lewis had, he would get crucified for having rotten attitude,

 

[Wombcat]

I think it's most likely that from the start of the race both the McLarens were on a 4 stopper. So was Alonso. As said, when Hamilton pitted, Webber had just gone on the soft tyres. Alonso already had pitted.
Button came in a few laps later. I think Vettel pitted before Button but I'm not sure about that. Probably McLaren was noticing that Webber put in good lap times, saw the tyre degradation on Hamilton tyres, and switched Button to a 3-stopper in response to the Red Bulls. That way at least Button would be in front of Vettel.

What would be interesting to know, is if the Red Bulls were planning this from the start, or took the gamble when Webber was out of position, trying to improve position by changing strategy. And that when they saw that it worked they also changed Vettels' strategy.

And the tyres pretty much reacted different than most people thought, just as they did last race. The super softs weren't that much faster than the softs later in the race. And were in fact only a couple of laps the faster tyre by that time. Alonso was quite soon overtaken by Vettel after the pitstops. Nobody would have excepted that to happen. At least I was quite surprised with Vettels' overtake, because normally he is not so good at it. That was the definite sign that the tyres wouldn't last.

 

[RasputinLives]

I think i've basically said enough with no one on the other 'side' being able to explain my last post.

Being the last to speak doesn't mean you're right. Other people just get bored of reading the same thing and move on

 

[Cookinflatsix]

I think i've basically said enough with no one on the other 'side' being able to explain my last post.
.

No-one has an answer, thats why. Only McLaren can tell us why they did this. They planned a 4 stop fair enough, but once the race was underway, it was obvious to all that the strategy had to evolve, but they stuck to it without adapting. It could be said that Lewis should have asked for primes, but that would be unfair seeing as he had no information about the other drivers.
Simply put, they messed up again but got away with it as Button won anyway. They dodged a big bullet on that decision. Its as though there is no effective leadership, common sense or decision maker on Lewis' side of the garage

No one has any viable answer to why Lewis was asked to make up time on super softs that had their big advantage removed by track conditions. They made a big mistake (again) and that's all we can say.

The pre race strategy might have looked good on paper before the race, but by lap 40 was no longer clever and way too risky, it was a mistake to stick to it.

Anyone saying it wasn't a McLaren mistake and that Lewis didn't make it work is either being disingenuous or provocative

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

Being the last to speak doesn't mean you're right.

I have no intention to be the last to speak. Others will speak. I was merely saying I've responded to everyone...but they don't have an answer to my rebuttle.

Over to you and others.

Peace, Love and all that other stuff!

 

[RickD]

What rebuttal is that Ray, you are still not explaining anything without hindsight and you simply do not seem able to do so. Until you can, there simply is nothing to rebut..

On one point, Jensons set of Supersofts seemed to be in much better shape than Lewis', that is why he stayed out longer. McLaren called him in for those tyres, even though Jenson was setting good times on the set of Super Softs he had on at the time. The reason it seem he was called in was to cover Vettel and Webber. Take off the tin foil hat and look at the race AS it was run..

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

You haven't explained why Hamilton/Button stopped within 1 lap of each other at the end of Stint 1 and Stint 2 and within 2 laps of each other at the end of Stint 3...and, all of a sudden, one was being asked to do an extra stop.

I've been polite about it yet you seem to think there's no way of looking at it "AS it was run" than your way.

Why aren't you answering the question about the sudden divergence?

 

[The Pits]

Anyone saying it wasn't a McLaren mistake and that Lewis didn't make it work is either being disingenuous or provocative

Or maybe they simply have a different opinion to yours, strange as that may seem.

 

[Cookinflatsix]

On one point, Jensons set of Supersofts seemed to be in much better shape than Lewis', that is why he stayed out longer. McLaren called him in for those tyres, even though Jenson was setting good times on the set of Super Softs he had on at the time. The reason it seem he was called in was to cover Vettel and Webber. Take off the tin foil hat and look at the race AS it was run..

Comical

Lewis overtakes Vettel and pulls a sizeable gap, Button is unable to pass and stays behind, and from my armchair I can safely tell you that Buttons tyres were in good shape

Or maybe they simply have a different opinion to yours, strange as that may seem.

Ah, and what is the viable alternate opinion?

 

[RickD]

You haven't explained why Hamilton/Button stopped within 1 lap of each other at the end of Stint 1 and Stint 2 and within 2 laps of each other at the end of Stint 3...and, all of a sudden, one was being asked to do an extra stop.

I've been polite about it yet you seem to think there's no way of looking at it AS it was run than your way.

Why aren't you answering the question about the sudden divergence?

Please re-read my post, the answer is in there..

I am out of this discussion as you obviously just want to slate McLaren as your chosen driver couldn't be as fast as you would like him to be..

 

[Cookinflatsix]

So Buttons tyres were in better shape than Lewis' and thats why Lewis was given options and Button primes a lap later

yes I think I better run away from this discussion myself

 

[Speshal]

Please try and keep all debate civil or this thread will be locked - Thank you.