Grand Prix 2011 Hungarian Grand Prix Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

Who was saying 2011 was boring?

It's amazing how a few non Red Bull dominated races can change the complexion of F1 and suddenly it's exciting again. However before we get too carried away, Vettel still holds a massive points lead and despite a poor (by his standards) race in Germany, he is still hot favourite as the F1 circus rolls into Hungary.

Hungary isn't known for it's exciting races (apart from 2006 possibly thanks to the weather) due to the dust bowl and lack of overtaking oppurtunities, but if 2011 is anything to go by, the phrase 'no overtaking' has been thrown out of the dictionary.

Despite recent set backs Red Bull will be favourites to bounce back at a circuit which suits them to a tee with weather conditions that will be beneficial to Vettel who struggled with grip at the chilly Nurburgring. However Ferrari and Mclaren have shown that they won't just stand still and let Red Bull walk to the championship with Hamilton and Alonso winning in the last 2 grand prix.

Indeed Mclaren seemed to be in trouble going into the German GP as they were off the pace of the Red Bulls and Ferraris, but in Hamiltons hands the car made a miracle recovery to not only take a front row position ahead of Vettel, but take the teams third win of the season after very stiff competition from Alonso and Webber. Is this the start of the established teams fightback?

Even beleagured Ferrari driver Massa has showed improved form recently with two 5th placed positions in the last 2 races but they could have easily been 2 fourth places had it not been for a strong defensive rearguard from Hamilton in Silverstone and a pit stop mess up in Germany which enabled Vettel to get past on the last lap. As Ferrari plan to take the fight to Red Bull, they will need Massa to take points off Vettel and Webber if Alonso is to have any chance of a miracle fightback.

Mercedes are in a league of their own at the moment, but not in a good way. They are faster than the likes of Renault and Force India, but slower than Ferrari, Red Bull and Mclaren and the 7th/8th place almost has a Mercedes name penned in if there aren't any incidents, (which knowing Schumacher is rare)

Renault have dropped off badly after a strong start to the season and after a crash from Heidfeld and a poor race from Petrov, they now find themselves picking up the scraps in the midfield for 5th place in the championship as Mercedes start to pull away from the black and gold outfit, maybe a tweak of the exhaust might bring them better fortunes in Hungary.

One person who drove a great race in Germany but hardly got any recognition was Adrian Sutil who drove probably the best race of the German drivers. 6th place after a strong qualifying will no doubt relieve the pressure that had been building on him and will show to Di Resta that he won't have things his own way at Force India and that Hulkenberg might have to wait a while for a race seat.

No doubt that there won't be any uncertainties about the weather this weekend as more often than not Hungary provides a race weekend with 30 degree sunshine with not a cloud to be seen, apart from the 2006 race which was notable for Jenson Buttons first win in the Honda.

For Galahads superb circuit write up see here http://cliptheapex.com/pages/hungaroring/
 
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I honestly think the decision for Hamilton to pit for super-soft tyres on lap 40 is what cost him the race and all other issues that followed were due to this critical mistake:-
  • Webber (and other drivers previously) had already put the prime tyre on and were putting in fastest lap after fastest lap, showing the performance difference was fairly marginal.
  • Even as far back as friday practice, it was obvious that after 4 or 5 laps, the degradation on the option tyre out-weighed its pace advantage over the prime and thus the prime was, without doubt, better to be on for a long period.
  • Hamilton was clearly superior to his rivals on the soft tyre during qualifying, showing brilliant pace on it and he looked much more comfortable on that than the super-soft. Indeed the likely reason for his large degradation on the super-soft was because his car was moving around a lot on them and would have been much more stable on the soft.
  • It was unrealistic to expect Hamilton to be able to pull out such a large lead over such a short period of time and thus he would inevitably have lost track position and had to overtake at a track that is notoriously hard to overtake, when cars are of similar pace.
  • When Hamilton went out on the super-softs, he was going slower than those on the prime tyre, suggesting McLaren were asking him to look after his tyres. There was no way he could finish the race on them and thus it looks like Hamilton was confused as to what they wanted him to do to get the strategy to work. As he went out on super-softs, the message should have been quite clear - thrash the tyres for 10 laps and get a 20+ second gap to 2nd place to maintain the lead.
  • By being out on the wrong tyre, it soon became apparent that Hamilton had effectively lost the race, when it started to rain, he was probably pushing the limits beyond what were viable on super-soft tyres that he said had "gone". This surely was a contributing factor in him spinning and thus receiving the drive-through penalty.
  • The whole factor of him pitting for intermediate tyres would have not been a factor had he been on the prime tyre, as he most likely would have still been in the lead at that point with a healthy lead of 5+ seconds over Button and even more over Vettel. He would therefore have been able to stay out a lap or 2 longer. The leader never risks coming in before those behind normally. The only reason he did so was because he effectively had to pit anyway and if he put the prime tyre on, he would still have lost the race and thus he may as well have gambled and hoped the rain got heavier.
All of the above is effectively a consequence of and clear statement that putting on the option tyre on lap 40 was a fundamental mistake. It goes without saying that Hamilton relies on his team to make strategy decisions for him more than Button, for example, and this is why in these circumstances, he needed his team more than ever to make the sensible and less risky decision. Had he gone out on soft tyres, then even if they had fallen away late in the race, he still would have had track position and may have lost position to JB, but would have likely kept 2nd. Hamilton was leading the race, yet got put on the more risky strategy, that was much less likely to be able to win him the race. Another likely outcome of his prime tyres falling away before the end would have been for him to pit while he still had a lead and put on the super-softs, allowing him to attack Vettel and Button, even if he lost track position.
 
tranquility2k9 said:
I honestly think the decision for Hamilton to pit for super-soft tyres on lap 40 is what cost him the race and all other issues that followed were due to this critical mistake:-
  • Webber (and other drivers previously) had already put the prime tyre on and were putting in fastest lap after fastest lap, showing the performance difference was fairly marginal.
  • Even as far back as friday practice, it was obvious that after 4 or 5 laps, the degradation on the option tyre out-weighed its pace advantage over the prime and thus the prime was, without doubt, better to be on for a long period.
  • Hamilton was clearly superior to his rivals on the soft tyre during qualifying, showing brilliant pace on it and he looked much more comfortable on that than the super-soft. Indeed the likely reason for his large degradation on the super-soft was because his car was moving around a lot on them and would have been much more stable on the soft.
  • It was unrealistic to expect Hamilton to be able to pull out such a large lead over such a short period of time and thus he would inevitably have lost track position and had to overtake at a track that is notoriously hard to overtake, when cars are of similar pace.
  • When Hamilton went out on the super-softs, he was going slower than those on the prime tyre, suggesting McLaren were asking him to look after his tyres. There was no way he could finish the race on them and thus it looks like Hamilton was confused as to what they wanted him to do to get the strategy to work. As he went out on super-softs, the message should have been quite clear - thrash the tyres for 10 laps and get a 20+ second gap to 2nd place to maintain the lead.
  • By being out on the wrong tyre, it soon became apparent that Hamilton had effectively lost the race, when it started to rain, he was probably pushing the limits beyond what were viable on super-soft tyres that he said had "gone". This surely was a contributing factor in him spinning and thus receiving the drive-through penalty.
  • The whole factor of him pitting for intermediate tyres would have not been a factor had he been on the prime tyre, as he most likely would have still been in the lead at that point with a healthy lead of 5+ seconds over Button and even more over Vettel. He would therefore have been able to stay out a lap or 2 longer. The leader never risks coming in before those behind normally. The only reason he did so was because he effectively had to pit anyway and if he put the prime tyre on, he would still have lost the race and thus he may as well have gambled and hoped the rain got heavier.
All of the above is effectively a consequence of and clear statement that putting on the option tyre on lap 40 was a fundamental mistake. It goes without saying that Hamilton relies on his team to make strategy decisions for him more than Button, for example, and this is why in these circumstances, he needed his team more than ever to make the sensible and less risky decision. Had he gone out on soft tyres, then even if they had fallen away late in the race, he still would have had track position and may have lost position to JB, but would have likely kept 2nd. Hamilton was leading the race, yet got put on the more risky strategy, that was much less likely to be able to win him the race. Another likely outcome of his prime tyres falling away before the end would have been for him to pit while he still had a lead and put on the super-softs, allowing him to attack Vettel and Button, even if he lost track position.
Click to expand

I wish I had written all that instead of replying to this thread in bits and pieces as response. I thought it was fairly obvious and didn't need much explaination, which somehow it has proved not to be. You have this absolutely spot-on.
 
This matter has been done to death, and the counter arguments just contradict your points.

All in all, hindisght is a wonderful thing, it's a shame McLaren didn't have that at the time of the race where they made their decisions.....oh wait, neither did the other 11 teams :rolleyes:
 
Galahad said:
Life has to be lived forwards; though it can only be understood backwards.
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OK. But plenty of us saw this coming at the time. We are discussing it in retrospect because everybody was busy watching the race when it happened. I wish everybody would stop going on about hindsight. I was shouting at the TV when they did this. That wasn't hindsight, it was live observation.
 
It was also quite telling that Alonso, the first I think to put on another set of supersofts while others were changing to softs, went quickly for a few laps then very soon got caught, re-passed and left behind by Vettel. I knew then that Hamilton's chance of a win was gone.
 
Chad Stewarthill said:
It was also quite telling that Alonso, the first I think to put on another set of supersofts while others were changing to softs, went quickly for a few laps then very soon got caught, re-passed and left behind by Vettel. I knew then that Hamilton's chance of a win was gone.
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But he was the only one going faster at the time Lewis came in for the pit stop, therefore it was the "right" tyre to be on at that moment..
 
gdeacon7 said:
Hi guys, also my first post and I have a few observations:
Firstly (and I don't mean this in a spiteful way) this forum is obviously heavily Hamilton-centric. You could just say 'HE had a good race . . .' and I would know who you were talking about.
On the spin/ drive-through, I believe he was sitting off the racing line and should have stayed there until he saw a gap. But this isn't the first time he's been guilty of such a move (0:42 at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbjRFd205qo&feature=related)
Bad tyre call but apparently his own choice, would have had to make a stop anyway because the super-softs weren't going to last. I'd like to point out that Webber suffered just as much by switching to inters (dunno if it was his choice) and back, practically trading 3rd place for 5th.
And to inject a bit of aussie bias, Ricciardo finishes ahead of his teammate for the first time. Onwards and upwards.
Click to expand

But none of them were his tyre choices! The pit wall couldn't hear him because his radio had problem and the pit wall didn't give him any info either. The team decided on what tyres to put on for him.
They saw the red bulls putting the prime on but they put the super softs on for Hamilton and primes for Button for some reason...

Then when these super softs were shot on Hamilton's car they put him on inters. Another very bad decision...

They screwed up for Hamilton basically and they didn't for Button.

Button and Whitmarsh both confirmed after the race that Jenson's tyre choices were made by the team and not Jenson.
 
ZoltanF1 said:
But none of them were his tyre choices! The pit wall couldn't hear him because his radio had problem and the pit wall didn't give him any info either. The team decided on what tyres to put on for him.
They saw the red bulls putting the prime on but they put the super softs on for Hamilton and primes for Button for some reason...

Then when these super softs were shot on Hamilton's car they put him on inters. Another very bad decision...

They screwed up for Hamilton basically and they didn't for Button.

Button and Whitmarsh both confirmed after the race that Jenson's tyre choices were made by the team and not Jenson.
Click to expand
I think you might be in a timewarp. Watch the race again and see when the tyres were put on which cars. I can tell you that at the time Hamilton went onto the SS, the only person on the Primes was Webber and he hadn't completed an outlap yet and his times weren't spectacular for the first 2 sectors he had completed..

At least if you are going to start a conspiracy, get the facts straight..
 
ExtremeNinja said:
OK. But plenty of us saw this coming at the time. We are discussing it in retrospect because everybody was busy watching the race when it happened. I wish everybody would stop going on about hindsight. I was shouting at the TV when they did this. That wasn't hindsight, it was live observation.
Click to expand

You should join us in live chat for Spa. I'm sure we'd be enlightened and/or entertained.
 
ExtremeNinja said:
No need to be rude. I respect your opinions Galahad, but be nice.
Click to expand
I didn't think the comment was nasty, I honestly think it would be good to have someone who claims to know which strategy a driver should be on at a particular moment and is not looking at it with hindsight, but with foresight...

It would be interesting to see what calls you would make live rather than saying you would have made a different call after the fact..
 
Galahad said:
If you want my theory, I'd say it's because Button can be trusted to look after his tyres when required, and Hamilton can't/won't?
Click to expand

What percentage of your above is actually a statement and what percentage is a question...and what about the umpteen races where Hamilton's blown away Button and that statement/question? Korea 2010. China 2011. Monaco 2011. Germany 2011. I can go on and on.
 
Galahad said:
Life has to be lived forwards; though it can only be understood backwards.
Click to expand

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yhat made my day :D

Correct me if I'm wrong but I've got a hunch danish existantialism isn't something you're unacquainted with? Aw blimey, this site is getting more artistic by the minute... LOL
 

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