Grand Prix 2011 Hungarian Grand Prix Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

Who was saying 2011 was boring?

It's amazing how a few non Red Bull dominated races can change the complexion of F1 and suddenly it's exciting again. However before we get too carried away, Vettel still holds a massive points lead and despite a poor (by his standards) race in Germany, he is still hot favourite as the F1 circus rolls into Hungary.

Hungary isn't known for it's exciting races (apart from 2006 possibly thanks to the weather) due to the dust bowl and lack of overtaking oppurtunities, but if 2011 is anything to go by, the phrase 'no overtaking' has been thrown out of the dictionary.

Despite recent set backs Red Bull will be favourites to bounce back at a circuit which suits them to a tee with weather conditions that will be beneficial to Vettel who struggled with grip at the chilly Nurburgring. However Ferrari and Mclaren have shown that they won't just stand still and let Red Bull walk to the championship with Hamilton and Alonso winning in the last 2 grand prix.

Indeed Mclaren seemed to be in trouble going into the German GP as they were off the pace of the Red Bulls and Ferraris, but in Hamiltons hands the car made a miracle recovery to not only take a front row position ahead of Vettel, but take the teams third win of the season after very stiff competition from Alonso and Webber. Is this the start of the established teams fightback?

Even beleagured Ferrari driver Massa has showed improved form recently with two 5th placed positions in the last 2 races but they could have easily been 2 fourth places had it not been for a strong defensive rearguard from Hamilton in Silverstone and a pit stop mess up in Germany which enabled Vettel to get past on the last lap. As Ferrari plan to take the fight to Red Bull, they will need Massa to take points off Vettel and Webber if Alonso is to have any chance of a miracle fightback.

Mercedes are in a league of their own at the moment, but not in a good way. They are faster than the likes of Renault and Force India, but slower than Ferrari, Red Bull and Mclaren and the 7th/8th place almost has a Mercedes name penned in if there aren't any incidents, (which knowing Schumacher is rare)

Renault have dropped off badly after a strong start to the season and after a crash from Heidfeld and a poor race from Petrov, they now find themselves picking up the scraps in the midfield for 5th place in the championship as Mercedes start to pull away from the black and gold outfit, maybe a tweak of the exhaust might bring them better fortunes in Hungary.

One person who drove a great race in Germany but hardly got any recognition was Adrian Sutil who drove probably the best race of the German drivers. 6th place after a strong qualifying will no doubt relieve the pressure that had been building on him and will show to Di Resta that he won't have things his own way at Force India and that Hulkenberg might have to wait a while for a race seat.

No doubt that there won't be any uncertainties about the weather this weekend as more often than not Hungary provides a race weekend with 30 degree sunshine with not a cloud to be seen, apart from the 2006 race which was notable for Jenson Buttons first win in the Honda.

For Galahads superb circuit write up see here http://cliptheapex.com/pages/hungaroring/
 
What percentage of your above is actually a statement and what percentage is a question...and what about the umpteen races where Hamilton's blown away Button and that statement/question? Korea 2010. China 2011. Monaco 2011. Germany 2011. I can go on and on.

All Galahad said was that Jesnon Button is more likely to be trusted to look after his tyres than Lewis, not blow him away.
 
First comment on this thread after seeing the race... I have to say I agree with those people saying that it was impossible to say if putting the options on Hamilton's car was the right call, it only became apparant maybe a couple of laps after when Button was keeping pace on the primes.

I also think Button had a considerable amount of luck this race (but he deserved going on recent races), McLaren chose the primes for him and options for Hamilton, he was overtaken by Hamilton and therefore didn't have to make the crucial decision whether or not to put a set of inters on and was second through the chicane after it started raining again which was a luxury Hamilton didn't have. But still a good race from Button.

What surprised me was Alonso, even though he went off the track at least twice he still beat Webber to 3rd, granted he didn't pit for inters but the margin was still quite a lot. It's now been over a year seen Webber won a race (in a Red Bull?!) and considering that in this time Vettel has won 9 races perhaps it's time he left the Red Bull seat for someone who might actually offer a challenge to Vettel.
 
Yes - Webbers days do look numbered. It was ominious that in only his 3rd race Ricciardo not only beat his team-mate in the HRT but one of the Virgins as well. What price him skipping the Toro Rosso stage and jumping straight to the senior team?

(although I still think Lewis will end up at Red Bull eventually)
 
I have to say I agree with those people saying that it was impossible to say if putting the options on Hamilton's car was the right call, it only became apparant maybe a couple of laps after when Button was keeping pace on the primes.
I agree; I seem to remember the commentators were confused at the time as well, and initially thought that those putting the primes on were making the error, only coming round a few laps later (that good old hindsight again) to thinking that Alonso and Hamilton staying on options were the ones who'd got it wrong.

What surprised me was Alonso, even though he went off the track at least twice he still beat Webber to 3rd, granted he didn't pit for inters but the margin was still quite a lot.
I think Alonso's offs were relatively minor and didn't lose him too much time, as opposed to say Hamilton's spin which left him stationary in the middle of the track and cost him a number of positions and lots of time (even disregarding the penalty). Alonso finished 30 seconds ahead of Webber, so with a pit stop for tyres around 20 seconds plus the chunk of time Mark must have lost while on the inters they probably would have ended up pretty close if the Aussie had not made that stop. Still a good race though by Alonso, to get yet another podium.

It's now been over a year seen Webber won a race (in a Red Bull?!) and considering that in this time Vettel has won 9 races perhaps it's time he left the Red Bull seat for someone who might actually offer a challenge to Vettel.
And why would RBR want that? :whistle:
 
Having read the swathes of post-race reaction across the web (sadly, not every post in this thread), it struck me as odd that everyone was in agreement that this was a "thriller" or a "classic".

I don't really understand how anyone can say that a race made almost entirely out of mistakes was a classic.

At least, that wouldn't be my definition of a classic. Our victor went off the track several times, there were numerous terrible strategies from different teams, and outside of the top 6, all the drivers were lapped. Classic? Surely one of the most overused terms in F1 this year.

For me at least, pure unpredictability and a game of luck is not what makes a classic. Am I alone in this? I'd sooner rather the fully dry race of Nurburgring a week ago than the rain-struck turgidity that we saw yesterday. I want to see great drivers, driving to their best abilities. For the most part I don't think we got that in Hungary.

Or am I just being an old fart?
 
No, you're right. Brundle said that we've had 9/11 classic races this year and frankly I think we've had 1.5 with China and the bit of Canada where they weren't sat in the pit lane.
 
Having read the swathes of post-race reaction across the web (sadly, not every post in this thread), it struck me as odd that everyone was in agreement that this was a "thriller" or a "classic".... ... I want to see great drivers, driving to their best abilities. For the most part I don't think we got that in Hungary.

Or am I just being an old fart?
Ah, the benefit of a fresh pair of eyes and studiously applied mind! Nice one Enja. I knew I should have waited another day before jumping in (ref. to my bad tempered interjections of yesterday evening and today's early hours:))

It was a curious race, full of little twists and turns; bursts if sublime car control on barely predictable or constantly changeable surfaces; concentration lapses; passes of class; and pratfalls perhaps. A classic? No, I'm not sure about that either, but challenging to the teams and their drivers and ... to us, somewhat entertaining when all is said and done. Me? I look forward, now, as ever after Hungary, to a proper challenge to separate man and boy racer .... Belgium.:D Bring it on.
 
Are we still blaming tyre blunder for Hamiltons' misadventures in Hungary? I would have thought a spin losing around 10s and a drivethrough were more viable causes than,.....ugh *cough* Mclaren sabotaging their ace.
 
It has already been proven that the spin and drive through cost him no places - he would have finished in 4th position anyway.

Well he was destined to have to pit again anyways, I guess we will never know for sure, but if it was truely his call to go to inters then he had a moment of panic when the others decided to go through it, at the end of the day, Webber making the daft choice is also the reason for no net loss, if Webber went out with Primes then 5th was the best result.
 
Are we still blaming tyre blunder for Hamiltons' misadventures in Hungary? I would have thought a spin losing around 10s and a drivethrough were more viable causes than,.....ugh *cough* Mclaren sabotaging their ace.

You are still the only person on this thread talking about sabotage. I think we have all said our bit on this one anyway, and opinion is split at best. That is not going to change. Your comment appears more an attempt to provoke a reaction than anything of meaningful substance.
 
Lewis Hamilton has said the following yesterday

" He was beaten by the better driver ( Jenson Button ) on the day !" Nuff said

He wore out his tyres to quickly which lead to his spin before he tried to donut and nearly collected Di Resta and Button

Lastly it was his call to change tyres to inters from the lead not the team's before anyone says its another Mclaren conspiracy against Lewis
 
I haven't looked into the matter...

But there's been very contradictory statements from the McLaren team, from Button, to Hamilton, to Whitmarsh, well just McLaren overall if I am honest.
 
Il Leone, it wasn't a fix or a conspiracy. It was a stupid call to ask Lewis to go 30 laps and make one extra stops while Jenson, only 2 laps later, was being asked to go 28 laps to the end without risking an extra stop.

It was just plain stupid. We're not talking about the call to go to Inters. We're talking about putting your lead driver on to the stupidly riskier strategy.

The difference between each of Lewis' and Jenson's first two stops was 1 lap...not 7 or 8 or 9 laps. Please do think about it. OK?

Suddenly Lewis was being asked to pound out unusually risky lap times to make up for one extra pitstop. You don't put the leader under that kind of extreme and unnessessary pressure.

Plainly stupid. McLaren don't seem to learn. China 2007 comes to mind. Leave your driver out there to dangle at the edge of adhesion in less than ideal conditions. Stupid!

Ron Dennis should hire Christian Horner to run things over there. I'm sure he'd do no worse!
 
...I honestly think it would be good to have someone who claims to know which strategy a driver should be on at a particular moment and is not looking at it with hindsight, but with foresight...

Rick, I know you don't agree with me much, but further to the above, here is something I wrote on Saturday in my (now shut down) McLaren Team Orders thread:

The Pits said:

... he would be unlikely to hold Lewis behind him for too long...

(Me):

The Hungaroring is a notoriously difficult circuit on which to pass as Senna found out when Boutsen held him off for the win for 50 some laps(in 1990, I believe).
The circuit configuration isn't like Turkey or Hockenheim (where the layouts allow for some bonafide overtaking spots). It's like Monaco except it's got a dirty off line (likely with lots of marbles from the anticipated high tyre degredation on Sunday) instead of armco.

--------------

Now, Rick my friend, the above was in response to "The Pits" suggesting Button would be unlikely to hold off Hamilton too long.

I bring up my response because - in my opinion/view - it was going to be crucial for Hamilton to keep "track position" at a circuit like Hungaroring. And on Sunday it was going to be even more important because it was damp off line...So, imagine Hamilton coming up Button's behind after having to make an extra pitstop...

In that scenario, did you really expect Button to simply move over?

I already stated that you don't put the leader of the race - who also happened to be best placed in the WDC - on a riskier strategy, especially when the pit stop differentials in terms of laps was 1 lap at the end of the first stint...and 1 lap at the end of the second stint.

Then, all of a sudden, your race leader is being put under unneccessary/unusual pressure and expected to bang out on-the-limit, Flat Out, 10/10th-type laps in order to make up the time...and then still find himself behind Button on a circuit like Hungaroring, especially with it being damp off line...and tons of marbles (as was anticipated)!

So, you may say it's all hindsight, but that's an assumption on your part, my friend.

Going into the race some of us were saying it was vital to give Hamilton the best chance to win the race given the WDC standings.

You're happy that Button won. That's nice for you and all of Jenson's fans. But, frankly, McLaren made a mistake. They should have ensured a riskless 1-2 with Hamilton closing the gap to Vettel by 10 points.

Button won. Hurray! But they made it easier for Vettel to defend his World Championship.

That's dismal for some of us F1 fans who want Vettel to be seriously challenged for the title!
 
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