Grand Prix 2011 Belgian Grand Prix Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

It's a long summer and the key discussions aren't about the F1.

As we are in the middle of the summer break, the SKY/BBC deal continues to take precedence over any on track action we saw at Hungary, which is a shame as we saw a cracker of a race where Jenson Button eventually won his second race of the season ahead of Sebastian Vettel who extended his lead at the top of the championship yet again and surely it takes a miracle for anyone to overtake him now with less than half the races to go.

However with Belgium coming closer on the calender, it seems as if Red Bull has lost the dominance it held over the first half of the season with McLaren appearing to have the best all round package with 4 wins now this year with 2 for Button and 2 for Hamilton. Ferrari aren't far behind and are perhaps the best team in warm conditions but that remains to be seen after a series of damp and cold races. However it would still be a foolish person to bet against Red Bull going into the Belgian Grand Prix where the fast sweeping corners and technical hairpins will no doubt play to their advantage.

Spa Francorchamps is regarded (quite rightly) as the best driver circuit on the calendar with the famous circuit having many variations from its original form to the current version which was last changed in 2006 to incorporate the new pit area and final chicane, the final chicane wasn't popular as both fans and drivers miss the challenging bus stop chicane and the 'new' pit lane which can cause problems.

The grand prix has been famous for it's unpredictable weather with violent storms and half the track being dry and the other wet at the same time and completely random showers, the big example was 2008 where a late shower caught out the entire field and cost Kimi Raikkonen (and eventually Hamilton) the win. In 1998 torrential rain caused one of the worst starts in F1 history where half the field was wiped out on turn 1, eventually (after a restart) Damon Hill won for Jordan in a 1-2 with Ralf Schumacher second, Michael Schumacher famously nearly started a fight with David Coulthard after crashing into him trying to lap him.

Michael Schumacher has an impressive record at this track, winning his first race at the track in 1992 and taking several wins at the track with his last coming in 2002 where he took his seventh world championship. However at the moment it is unlikely that he will add to his list of wins with the Mercedes well off the pace of the leading trio of Ferrari, Mclaren and Red Bull.

Mercedes might find themselves behind Force India at the race as the track suits them down to a tee, in 2009 Fisichella took a surprise pole position and then took second place just finishing behind Raikkonen in the Ferrari (who always seemed to win at Spa when he was driving there)
Sutil and Di Resta have shown impressive pace recently, with both achieving season bests at the last few races and are closing the gap to the flagging Renault team who have really lost performance since the start of the season with Heidfeld and Petrov dissapointing.

On a personal level I am really looking forward to this race as I have weekend tickets and will be at Pouhon all weekend to bring you the best coverage from the track, (better than these Sky lot anyway)

For Galahad's excellent circuit write up, see here http://cliptheapex.com/pages/circuit-de-spa-francorchamps/

 

[Hamberg]

I'm watching it again and I'd actually like to say how impressed I was with Alo.. (hold on... ) Alonso. There were at least two occasions against the both Red Bull boys (Webber at Eau Rouge, Seb on lap 18) where he was overtaken but avoided potential collisions through his awareness and caution through these overtakes. He was ahead going into both situations and could easily have been involved in a collision had he not backed out, and similarly, less so in Mark's case, in the knowledge of The Red Bull's in understanding their competitor and that he would concede when beaten.

They both could have so easily resulted in disaster had he retained a certain arrogance (or confusion that F1 is bumper cars) that others may have done. Good racing.

 

[Hamberg]

And very well done to Button and Massa on lap 25. 'Sensational' and 'brave' of Button to put that amount of trust in Massa to not spin him off the circuit, and well done both drivers for having respect for each other. It's great isn't it that some drivers don't exercise the right of way, and how others are able to have the confidence that they can go for risky moves without suffering broken front suspension, oh and a penalty. Yeah there were some sublime moves this race.

 

[Pyrope]

Too much downforce. They were banking on some rain which never materialised on Sunday. The Red Bull seems to have regained it's advantage as confirmed in Sebastian's interview. Makes things look quite ominous for the rest of the season. I think the rain helped McLaren in quali and the lack of it scuppered them in the race. Of course, Jenson didn't burn a single set of slicks in qualli which gave him a fighting chance, but not enough.

I seem to remember both James Hunt and Martin Brundle both making the point to Murray Walker that a car with a wet setup running on a dry track is far more compromised than a car with a dry setup running on a wet track. McLaren must have been absolutely sure of rain to go with a high downforce setting.

 

[Brogan]

Tyre analysis from GP Update.

http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/267089/in-depth-tyre-analysis-spa-francorchamps/

 

[ExtremeNinja]

That absolutely confirms my thoughts about the race.

Take a look at Button and Schumacher. Both did three or four laps respectively on the primes at the beginning of the race and then had three brand new sets of options to go out and trounce everyone with on almost identical strategies. Makes you wonder what the point in qualifying is.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

also, considering the strategies that Webber and Vettel were on and the tyres they ran and given that Webber was closing in on Vettel fast at the end I can only conclude that Webber drove a better race and appeared to be held back where a victory could well have been on the cards. Is this a case of the team favouring Vettel with optimum strategy to keep their boy in front?

 

[Pyrope]

also, considering the strategies that Webber and Vettel were on and the tyres they ran and given that Webber was closing in on Vettel fast at the end I can only conclude that Webber drove a better race and appeared to be held back where a victory could well have been on the cards. Is this a case of the team favouring Vettel with optimum strategy to keep their boy in front?

I think that without knowing just how much their extreme camber setup was actually affecting their tyres it is very difficult to say what was going on. Certainly Seb had a lot of blistering going on and his final set of tyres could quite easily have dropped him into a wall. Webber was perhaps on a safer strategy, but if Vettel had actually had to race people hard then his tyres may well not have lasted so Webber might have picked up the win. I think this is called "covering your bases" when you aren't sure which strategy is actually better to follow. Judging by Newey's reaction when Vettel finally crossed the line, he wasn't at all certain that Seb's tyres would last...

 

[ExtremeNinja]

I think that without knowing just how much their extreme camber setup was actually affecting their tyres it is very difficult to say what was going on. Certainly Seb had a lot of blistering going on and his final set of tyres could quite easily have dropped him into a wall. Webber was perhaps on a safer strategy, but if Vettel had actually had to race people hard then his tyres may well not have lasted so Webber might have picked up the win. I think this is called "covering your bases" when you aren't sure which strategy is actually better to follow. Judging by Newey's reaction when Vettel finally crossed the line, he wasn't at all certain that Seb's tyres would last...

You have to wonder why Webber only ran three laps on the primes though when he had two more brand new sets at his disposal. If it was a case of covering their bases and they were worried about the options then I'm sure they wouldn't have taken their gamble with Vettel.

 

[Pyrope]

You don't know what the internal structure of RBR is though. It could be that the highest qualifier gets first call on strategy, in which case if they had one risky-but-fast strategy and one safe-but-slow strategy you just know which one any driver is going to choose for themselves. There may also be something in the way they were using their tyres, and Mark has always been very good at adapting his driving style to suit the circumstances. It isn't as if Webber was slow on the primes as that's what he used to set fastest lap, even where Button and Schumacher were on options with the same fuel load.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

You don't know what the internal structure of RBR is though. It could be that the highest qualifier gets first call on strategy, in which case if they had one risky-but-fast strategy and one safe-but-slow strategy you just know which one any driver is going to choose for themselves. There may also be something in the way they were using their tyres, and Mark has always been very good at adapting his driving style to suit the circumstances. It isn't as if Webber was slow on the primes as that's what he used to set fastest lap, even where Button and Schumacher were on options with the same fuel load.

Possibly. Sucks to be Mark then. I think he is Seb's equal on race day and when the playing field was more level, often his equal on qualli day too. The hypocrisy in Horner's statement of equal driver support stands out like a floater in the bathtub.

 

[Slyboogy]

That absolutely confirms my thoughts about the race.

Take a look at Button and Schumacher. Both did three or four laps respectively on the primes at the beginning of the race and then had three brand new sets of options to go out and trounce everyone with on almost identical strategies. Makes you wonder what the point in qualifying is.

Button and Schumacher only had one newer set to the other drivers, the drivers that qualified in the top 10 only used one set of options.

Don't know how you can say most of their race was influenced by a one brand new set of options.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Button and Schumacher only had one newer set to the other drivers, the drivers that qualified in the top 10 only used one set of options.

Don't know how you can say most of their race was influenced by a one brand new set of options.

Correct. Button and Schumacher had one more set of soft tyres. That's what I said. This meant that Button and Schumacher could start on primes and pit after three laps leaving them with three brand new sets of soft tyres.

This is a big advantage given the differential in tyre pace around Spa.

Surely you are not disputing that. I know you have watched all of the rest of the races this year so I know you know what an advantage that is. As I've said in previous posts, there is more to it than that. The tyres not only gave them the advantage of the rubber but the ability to run the strategy that they did. There was also a safety car which played massively into their hands.

They both drove fantastic races by the way, I wouldn't argue with that so please don't think I'm taking that away from them.

Imagine the race as an experiment where the variable is available tyres and where the variable is applied to the cases of Button and Schumacher and the rest of the field are the control samples. The results are absolutely conclusive.

 

[Slyboogy]

Correct. Button and Schumacher had one more set of soft tyres. That's what I said. This meant that Button and Schumacher could start on primes and pit after three laps leaving them with three brand new sets of soft tyres.

This is a big advantage given the differential in tyre pace around Spa.

Surely you are not disputing that. I know you have watched all of the rest of the races this year so I know you know what an advantage that is. As I've said in previous posts, there is more to it than that. The tyres not only gave them the advantage of the rubber but the ability to run the strategy that they did. There was also a safety car which played massively into their hands.

They both drove fantastic races by the way, I wouldn't argue with that so please don't think I'm taking that away from them.

Imagine the race as an experiment where the variable is available tyres and where the variable is applied to the cases of Button and Schumacher and the rest of the field are the control samples. The results are absolutely conclusive.

Fair point.

But it isn't exactly their fault it didn't rain in the final part of qualifying. As in the post above that I quoted you went on to state this

Take a look at Button and Schumacher. Both did three or four laps respectively on the primes at the beginning of the race and then had three brand new sets of options to go out and trounce everyone with on almost identical strategies. Makes you wonder what the point in qualifying is.

Even if there was no advantage over the top teams starting on the same tyre they qualified on, Button and Schumacher would still have an extra set of tyres would they not? Since this rule of a number of each set of tyres has been running for some time now? At least since 2009? Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Fair point.

But it isn't exactly their fault it didn't rain in the final part of qualifying. As in the post above that I quoted you went on to state this

I would never blame either Button or Schumacher for the weather. That would be silly.

Even if there was no advantage over the top teams starting on the same tyre they qualified on, Button and Schumacher would still have an extra set of tyres would they not? Since this rule of a number of each set of tyres has been running for some time now? At least since 2009? Correct me if I am wrong.

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying or what point you are trying to make.

To make things absolutely clear from my end. My point is that, whatever the circumstances surrounding, Button and Schumacher started the race with a massive advantage to their competitors. This is somewhat offset by their grid positions which is why they didn't win the race but given their tyre advantage and also the strategy it allowed them and given that they are both in very competitive cars, they were able to practically blitz everybody in front of them.... which they did.

 

[Slyboogy]

The point I am trying to make is quite confusing to understand, therefore I shall leave it at that, until I can properly word it.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

The point I am trying to make is quite confusing to understand, therefore I shall leave it at that, until I can properly word.

That made me chuckle.

 

[Slyboogy]