Grand Prix 2011 Belgian Grand Prix Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

It's a long summer and the key discussions aren't about the F1.

As we are in the middle of the summer break, the SKY/BBC deal continues to take precedence over any on track action we saw at Hungary, which is a shame as we saw a cracker of a race where Jenson Button eventually won his second race of the season ahead of Sebastian Vettel who extended his lead at the top of the championship yet again and surely it takes a miracle for anyone to overtake him now with less than half the races to go.

However with Belgium coming closer on the calender, it seems as if Red Bull has lost the dominance it held over the first half of the season with McLaren appearing to have the best all round package with 4 wins now this year with 2 for Button and 2 for Hamilton. Ferrari aren't far behind and are perhaps the best team in warm conditions but that remains to be seen after a series of damp and cold races. However it would still be a foolish person to bet against Red Bull going into the Belgian Grand Prix where the fast sweeping corners and technical hairpins will no doubt play to their advantage.

Spa Francorchamps is regarded (quite rightly) as the best driver circuit on the calendar with the famous circuit having many variations from its original form to the current version which was last changed in 2006 to incorporate the new pit area and final chicane, the final chicane wasn't popular as both fans and drivers miss the challenging bus stop chicane and the 'new' pit lane which can cause problems.

The grand prix has been famous for it's unpredictable weather with violent storms and half the track being dry and the other wet at the same time and completely random showers, the big example was 2008 where a late shower caught out the entire field and cost Kimi Raikkonen (and eventually Hamilton) the win. In 1998 torrential rain caused one of the worst starts in F1 history where half the field was wiped out on turn 1, eventually (after a restart) Damon Hill won for Jordan in a 1-2 with Ralf Schumacher second, Michael Schumacher famously nearly started a fight with David Coulthard after crashing into him trying to lap him.

Michael Schumacher has an impressive record at this track, winning his first race at the track in 1992 and taking several wins at the track with his last coming in 2002 where he took his seventh world championship. However at the moment it is unlikely that he will add to his list of wins with the Mercedes well off the pace of the leading trio of Ferrari, Mclaren and Red Bull.

Mercedes might find themselves behind Force India at the race as the track suits them down to a tee, in 2009 Fisichella took a surprise pole position and then took second place just finishing behind Raikkonen in the Ferrari (who always seemed to win at Spa when he was driving there)
Sutil and Di Resta have shown impressive pace recently, with both achieving season bests at the last few races and are closing the gap to the flagging Renault team who have really lost performance since the start of the season with Heidfeld and Petrov dissapointing.

On a personal level I am really looking forward to this race as I have weekend tickets and will be at Pouhon all weekend to bring you the best coverage from the track, (better than these Sky lot anyway)

For Galahad's excellent circuit write up, see here http://cliptheapex.com/pages/circuit-de-spa-francorchamps/

 

[tranquility2k9]

What I don't get is when it's another driver or Lewis is behind someone else and going for a pass, say on Jenson at Canada. Everyone says the guy infront is entitled to close the door and that the guy behind cannot go for a gap that is going to close and has to pull out. Yet although in hindsight, Lewis should have been more aware of where Koboyashi was, even if he intentionally squeezed him, I don't see why that is a problem as he was in-front. If you watched the action in the race at Spa, there was probably 20 or 30 occasions when a driver had to pull out of a move because the guy in-front closed the door. It's not a dirty move, it's racing!

 

[Chad Stewarthill]

Complete anathema to most top line racing drivers... lift off on a straight??? After Lewis passed him, KK tucked into the slipstream. Lewis saw this and so moved right to cover the inside line should Kamui get a decent tow. This he did so he went to the outside, the only route left. He knew Hamilton had the inside line to the corner and therefore he rightly realised that a pass wasn't on, but lifting off would have wasted time and no racing driver is going to do that. Following that you simply have a racing incident where one driver assumed one thing and the other assumed another and crash, bang, wallop. Neither driver was blameless, yet neither driver was reckless. The stewards, likely with Mansell's guidance, took one look and wrote it off as a racing incident. To bowdlerise the common axiom: stuff happens.

Of course you lift off, or even brake if necessary, if there is nowhere to go. Especially if you have just been overtaken by someone who you know to be in the title battle and who you are clearly not in a position to fight for position with and, as you admit afterwards, you were not seeking to re-pass. It's called 'Avoiding an Accident' and in these circumstances is not dissimilar to that of a backmarker being lapped.
Kobayashi had every opportunity to take such action, as others did in similar circumstances. He knew where the racing line was and where Hamilton was likely to position himself for the corner ahead; he knew that Hamilton would be looking to the corner, not looking out for him. And yet he stayed where he was, in Hamilton's blind spot, and didn't lift.

 

[tranquility2k9]

Interesting comments by Adam Cooper on twitter:-

adamcooperf1 Adam Cooper
#F1 Interesting to see the stories about @jensonbutton waiting for McLaren to take up his option for 2012

adamcooperf1 Adam Cooper
#F1 An ex-McLaren driver told me the team 'can't afford to keep Jenson because they pay Lewis so much.' Make of that what you will...

adamcooperf1 Adam Cooper
@RickHollister I know it sounds strange, just passing on the message. Would imagine in 3rd year JB's salary due to go up

 

[Brogan]

Already posted on the driver thread: http://cliptheapex.com/threads/jenson-button.3460/page-15#post-75421

 

[Pyrope]

Of course you lift off, or even brake if necessary, if there is nowhere to go. Especially if you have just been overtaken by someone who you know to be in the title battle and who you are clearly not in a position to fight for position with and, as you admit afterwards, you were not seeking to re-pass. It's called 'Avoiding an Accident' and in these circumstances is not dissimilar to that of a backmarker being lapped.
Kobayashi had every opportunity to take such action, as others did in similar circumstances. He knew where the racing line was and where Hamilton was likely to position himself for the corner ahead; he knew that Hamilton would be looking to the corner, not looking out for him. And yet he stayed where he was, in Hamilton's blind spot, and didn't lift.

The killer line in your post is "if there is nowhere to go". There was somewhere for Kobayashi to go, and he went left as Hamilton was sat square in the middle of the track. If you watch the replays Kamui gets a long way alongside Hamilton, almost level in fact, and had every right to do so as he was faster than Lewis. Kobayashi was not a backmarker and Hamilton's on track positioning certainly shows that he treated him as racing for position. As Kobayashi was so far alongside I don't see why he should assume that Hamilton would come back to the left. As we've discussed in relation to other incidents, the usual rule of thumb is that a trailing driver should be at least half way alongside the lead car for the lead car to have to allow for them in their manoeuvres, which KK was.

From that point on you have two drivers each assuming that the other would give them room. By the time Kobayashi realised that Hamilton was coming left their wheels were interlocked and there was no way he could brake without probably launching both of them into the Rhineland. At that point the end result was out of Kamui's control. Conversely, Lewis looks as though he had forgotten he had wing mirrors. He made an assumption about where Kobayashi was and it was an incorrect assumption. He made what he probably thought of as a normal move to position for the corner (we can argue about whether that was actually his second move to defend on the straight later...) and drove his rear wheel into the sidepod of the Sauber. Hamilton should have used his mirrors, but Kobayashi should have seen the move coming earlier. Either could have avoided the accident, but neither was being unreasonably dangerous. Six of one, half a dozen of another, it was just one of those things.

 

[Chad Stewarthill]

The point is that when you have being overtaken, especially by a title contender in a considerably faster car, you at some point have to concede that the pass has been made and you let the other driver go, effectively conceding the position to them. It is in this context that I likened the situation to a backmarker being lapped.

It would have been clear to Kobayashi that he wasn't really racing Hamilton, but that he had temporarily re-caught him due to his superior straight line speed at that point on the lap. In that situation it was stupid, mirrors or no mirrors, to sit on the rear outside corner of the car that had just overtaken him and that was about to enter a left hander, where its driver would surely have been concentrating. Kobayashi, in positioning himself as he did, simply invited the accident.

Hamilton was passed by, and hit by, Maldonado who came across his front on Saturday when they weren't even supposed to be racing, and yet he was somehow held partially accountable for the accident. Then on Sunday he had fully passed Kobayashi and was adjusting his line for the upcoming corner, when Kobayashi came back at him from behind and on the outside. Yet again, Hamilton is held to be partly (or even wholly, by some) responsible. Lewis, it seems, is damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.

 

[Josh]

You just can not hold Kobayashi fully responsible. You can't.

 

[mjo]

Of course you can't. Even Hamilton himself accepts that he was to blame (although I don't think it was 100% his fault) and, lets face it, he was actually in the car at the time, so he is a more credible witness of the event than all of us put together.

 

[Cookinflatsix]

Chad

No amount of logic is going to overturn the opinions of those IMHO who have predefined views either due to prejudice (of any sort) or conditioning by media reporting

There is no debate possible, its just reporting your ones own opinion

I absolutely agree with your clear and succinct opinion there for what its worth

 

[Pyrope]

Chad

No amount of logic is going to overturn the opinions of those IMHO who have predefined views either due to prejudice (of any sort) or conditioning by media reporting

There is no debate possible, its just reporting your ones own opinion

I absolutely agree with your clear and succinct opinion there for what its worth

Actually 'six, debating is exactly what we are doing. Blindly kowtowing to received wisdom or the views of another without challenging them is never a good idea. You look at the evidence and form an opinion, others challenge your interpretation and you either see their point or realise you need to explain your views further.

 

[Chad Stewarthill]

You just can not hold Kobayashi fully responsible. You can't.

I can, and do. Well, at least 90% anyway.

I'm not trying to make Hamilton out to be perfect, far from it. I have criticised him in the past and no doubt will again. But in this instance I think he had a right to think that he'd done enough to pass the slower car and 'have the road', so to speak in terms of positioning his car where he saw fit to take the racing line into the next corner.
Kobayashi should have realised the game was up as far as this particular contest was concerned and, being the one behind, should have avoided an accident. And by avoiding an accident I mean by:
a) Not sticking himself in a risky position
b) Using his brakes. Don't forget that a F1 car will slow by about 1g just by lifting off. Then it will slow by a further 3 or 4g with some pressure from the left foot.
Something about the way Hamilton capitulated later and admitted 100% blame for something that he is patently nowhere near 100% at fault for does not quite sit right, and suggests to me that he is gradually 'letting the buggers grind him down'.

 

[Pyrope]

The point is that when you have being overtaken, especially by a title contender in a considerably faster car, you at some point have to concede that the pass has been made and you let the other driver go, effectively conceding the position to them. It is in this context that I likened the situation to a backmarker being lapped.

Eventually... but at the very next corner? How many times have we praised a driver for harrying and pushing a lead driver in the hope that their distraction will force the leader into a mistake. I don't ever want to see any driver meekly tug their forelock to another driver, and one of the things I like about both Lewis and Kamui is their scrappy demeanour.

It would have been clear to Kobayashi that he wasn't really racing Hamilton, but that he had temporarily re-caught him due to his superior straight line speed at that point on the lap. In that situation it was stupid, mirrors or no mirrors, to sit on the rear outside corner of the car that had just overtaken him and that was about to enter a left hander, where its driver would surely have been concentrating. Kobayashi, in positioning himself as he did, simply invited the accident.

At that point they were racing for position and in many cases in the past a driver of a slower car has been heavily praised for keeping the quicker car honest and not making life too easy for the superstar in the rocket car (Kamui vs. Jenson, Alonso vs. Schumacher, Petrov vs. Alonso, etc. etc. etc.). Further, Kobayashi wasn't positioned at the outside rear corner, he was at least half way alongside Lewis. Lewis had already moved once to defend his position (moving from the left into the centre of the track to hold the inside line) so Kamui had a reasonable expectation that he would hold that line into the braking area. Lewis decided to move left again before the braking zone even though Kamui was alongside (not behind!) and you could easily argue that this was actually a second defensive move. Lewis had already realised that Kamui was faster than him which is why he moved in the first place, so why did he forget about him when lining up the corner? That was a little dim. I don't imagine that it was done intentionally or with any sort or malice, but it was a mistake. Kamui should have perhaps reasoned that Lewis might move and reacted faster to it when it came, but to say that he invited the accident is more than a little odd. As I said before, blame on both sides.

Hamilton was passed by, and hit by, Maldonado who came across his front on Saturday when they weren't even supposed to be racing, and yet he was somehow held partially accountable for the accident. Then on Sunday he had fully passed Kobayashi and was adjusting his line for the upcoming corner, when Kobayashi came back at him from behind and on the outside. Yet again, Hamilton is held to be partly (or even wholly, by some) responsible. Lewis, it seems, is damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.

I fully agree that the Maldonado incident on Saturday was completely unfair to Lewis. Lewis's pass at the chicane was hard but fair (Pastor left a couple of barn doors open on the inside there and then only decided to close them after Lewis had passed!) but Maldonado's behaviour on the run down from La Source would have had him banned from the next three races if I were on the stewarding panel. Judge every incident on its merits and don't go into an argument trying to favour one driver or another, that's how I always try and approach it. I don't go for "favourites" just because of who they are or how they drive, I'd be happy with any red-blooded racer winning the title, just so long as they do it fairly and with a sporting spirit.

 

[Chad Stewarthill]

Pyrope,

Some very well-reasoned arguments there.

The only point where I would really differ is that it is one thing to defend with gusto against a quicker car behind, a la Petrov v Alonso etc, but that's not what happened here! Koby had already lost out, to a car he has not been competing with all season and, as he later said, was not seeking to re-pass. So why did he put himself in that position on the road? It was asking for trouble.

So it was definitely NOT 100% Lewis' fault, or even 50%. On reflection, I'd say it was more like 85% Koby's fault, 15% Lewis.

 

[Road of Bones]

Can we just have a show of hands now?

Who thinks it was Kobayashi's fault? ok...
Now who thinks it was Lewis' fault? and finally...
Who thinks it was a Racing Incident?

Surely there's not much more to discuss, is there?

I think the saddest thing about the incident was that my first thought was not "hope Lewis is ok", but "crikey - the forum's going to have a meltdown over this" (and that goes for the Maldonado swipe too). I'm actually rather disappointed that I wasn't wrong...

 

[Pyrope]

Hey, if we don't talk about the controversial points of a race then what would we discuss! I've argued all along that it was a racing incident, but there are always different points of view and judgement calls to be made, and that's where the discussion comes in. Lewis is great to talk about as he seems to span the complete spectrum, from his dumb move on Massa at Monaco to the Sauber swipe at Spa; 100% culpability at one end, to 100% innocent at the other. It doesn't seem fair that there are a lot of people (within and without the F1 world) who assume that Lewis is automatically at fault, but it also seems odd that there are people who argue the boy can do no wrong.

 

[Chad Stewarthill]

RoB, it's just debate, that's all. Isn't that what we're all here for when all's said & done?

 

[Hamberg]

It's clearly Lewis' fault. He's alive isn't he?

 

[Road of Bones]

Yeah Chad -of course you're right (and Pyrope too) - it's just that after wading through 16 pages of people tearing the Maldonado & Kobayashi incidents to atoms, I was getting a bit sick of hearing about it. I was hoping people would spend more time discussing the better points of the race, rather than dwelling obsessively on the negative aspects of what I thought was a bloody good weekend's motorsport (the GP3 races were excellent too).

 

[Chad Stewarthill]

Yeah Chad -of course you're right (and Pyrope too) - it's just that after wading through 16 pages of people tearing the Maldonado & Kobayashi incidents to atoms, I was getting a bit sick of hearing about it. I was hoping people would spend more time discussing the better points of the race, rather than dwelling obsessively on the negative aspects of what I thought was a bloody good weekend's motorsport (the GP3 races were excellent too).

Fair point. I have to say I feel a bit deprived this week, as I was travelling while the GP was on and had to listen to it on the radio. I saw the highlights show later, but even missed the beginning of that. So I don't have much to go on in debating the more positive aspects of the race. Fair play to Schumacher though for coming through from the back.

I saw none of the support races either, and was disaapointed when I read the GP3 results. My main hope Alex Sims seems to have been gradually doing worse ever since his wet race heroics at Silverstone. Congrats to Grosjean for wrapping up the GP2 title.

 

[Quintessentially]

What I don't get is when it's another driver or Lewis is behind someone else and going for a pass, say on Jenson at Canada. Everyone says the guy infront is entitled to close the door and that the guy behind cannot go for a gap that is going to close and has to pull out. Yet although in hindsight, Lewis should have been more aware of where Koboyashi was, even if he intentionally squeezed him, I don't see why that is a problem as he was in-front. If you watched the action in the race at Spa, there was probably 20 or 30 occasions when a driver had to pull out of a move because the guy in-front closed the door. It's not a dirty move, it's racing!

If anything Hamilton didn't close the door enough and by braking earlier he was always going to come off worse. Kamui stuck his nose in there and tried to eek out a bit more track space because he was allowed to not to mention the fact that he was carrying too much speed having cruised past the 50m board. However i can understand why Hamilton took the conservative approach as he wasn't racing the Sauber but you give a racing driver an inch he takes two and Lewis should have known better, especially after what happened with Maldonado. These guys are not going to part like the red sea and you just can't trust your own team mate let alone another driver to steer clear of you rear suspension in that scenario.