1994 again?

[RayInTorontoCanada]

If Vettel was to dominate for the next 5 years in the way he has this season some people would be saying he had no completion too, but the simple fact is he dominated them and the season.

Its just how you chose to see it.

How can you say Vettel had no competition in 2010 and 2011 when almost everyone on the planet were listing Alonso and Hamilton as All Time Greats in the making - and that didn't include Button, another WDC!?

I don't know if you know this but after Senna was killed, there were no World Champions left on the grid. Schumacher was competing against what were Williams test drivers (Hill, Coulthard) and Williams Indycar hires (JV, Zanardi), none of whom were being regarded by Sir Frank and Patrick Head as true Aces. That's why they hired Frentzen who - as they found out - wasn't very good either.

Think about that!

The level of competition Vettel faced in 2010 and 2011 was enormous in comparision to what Schumacher faced in 1994 and 1995.

It isn't even close.

Another huge difference is that the FIA favoured Ferrari significantly during the Schumacher era. Max Mosley will tell you if you have any doubt whatsoever. So, when the governing body is conspiring to give you an advantage, the competition is going to have a much tougher time being "the competition".

 

[teabagyokel]

The level of competition Vettel faced in 2010 and 2011 was enormous in comparision to what Schumacher faced in 1994 and 1995.

With the difference, of course, being that Schumi wasn't in Newey's car, and Vettel was.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

With the difference, of course, being that Schumi wasn't in Newey's car, and Vettel was.

Ya but he was in a Rory Byrne/Ross Brawn car which - at least on his B196 only - had Option 13 and the use of illegal Launch and Traction Control. [Sounds (from Bernie Ecclestone's archival footage as used by makers of the movie "Senna") out of Tosa at Imola confirmed this too.]

Rory Byrne/Ross Brawn were - as a combo - arguably as great, if not greater, than Newey.

Byrne penned 7 title-winning cars and Brawn was involved with 8 title-winning cars.

Rory Byrne, arguably, is one of the three greatest designers in F1 history along with Colin Chapman and Adrian Newey.

So, Vettel may have had Newey...but Schumacher had Byrne AND Brawn AND Option 13.

 

[Vortex]

How can you say Vettel had no competition in 2010 and 2011 when almost everyone on the planet were listing Alonso and Hamilton as All Time Greats in the making - and that didn't include Button, another WDC!?

I don't know if you know this but after Senna was killed, there were no World Champions left on the grid. Schumacher was competing against what were Williams test drivers (Hill, Coulthard) and Williams Indycar hires (JV, Zanardi), none of whom were being regarded by Sir Frank and Patrick Head as true Aces. That's why they hired Frentzen who - as they found out - wasn't very good either.

Think about that!

The level of competition Vettel faced in 2010 and 2011 was enormous in comparision to what Schumacher faced in 1994 and 1995.

It isn't even close.

Another huge difference is that the FIA favoured Ferrari significantly during the Schumacher era. Max Mosley will tell you if you have any doubt whatsoever. So, when the governing body is conspiring to give you an advantage, the competition is going to have a much tougher time being "the competition".

1. I didn’t say he didn’t have any competition, read the post again.
2. Are you serious? Don’t be so condescending.
3. Max Mosley wont tell me anything, I don’t know the bloke! lol
4. They also changed the rules to spice up the racing and end Schumacher’s dominance.

End of the day we’re all aware of your Schumacher prejudice so I don’t expect an objectionable viewpoint from you but anyone can talk about any event form 2 completely different points of view.

Also I think people use the term ‘all time greats’ way too easily these days, none of the current drivers (bar Schumacher) yet qualify for that title. Maybe one day but we wont know for many years to come. Who’s to say if Hamilton will even win another WDC? he could be another Villeneuve! Point is we just don’t know. Yet!

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

Yes, I've repeatedly said we won't know until years from now.

Martin Brundle - who was "in" those eras - just finished saying yesterday what a high level of quality this current grid is. Sutil fighting for 11th through 130-R, as an instance. For 11th!

Hulkenberg can't even get a seat. In 1994 he'd have no shortage of seats being one of the very few to win the title in the series just before F1 in his first year.

I'm not the only one who has commented on the exteme quality and depth of talent of the 2010/11 grid.

Sir Jackie Stewart, Niki Lauda, Martin Brundle have all come out and spoken of it in relation to what was on the grid in mid 1990s after Senna was killed and Prost and Mansell were no longer factors.

Williams and Head simply weren't rating Coulthard, Hill, Villeneuve, Frentzen.

Who would know more about driving talent in 1994 and 1995 than Frank Williams and Patrick Head?

Georgio Ascanelli - who worked with Senna, Schumacher and Vettel - is rating Vettel closer to Senna. That must count for something?

 

[Vortex]

What are you banging on about? Nobody is saying there’s no talent on the grid! lol

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

I thought you wanted to discuss the level and depth of driving talent and 'competition' 1994/1995 vs 2011/2012?

 

[Bill Boddy]

The problem is, Ray, that there's no competition when it comes to the cars. No, don't come up with Webber, he hasn't been able to get the Pirelli tyres to work during qualy. He has had decent drives during races in a car which excels when out in front but can have problems in dirty air.

I am not saying that Vettel is not a good driver, I am only saying that you are comparing apples and broomsticks.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

Bill, there has been competition when it comes to the cars.

Mclaren could have won Spain, Monaco, Italy. They did win China, Canada, Germany, Hungary, Japan.

Ferrari could have won Monaco, Canada and Japan. They won in England.

There's been competition.

 

[Bill Boddy]

Could have, should have, might have. You yourself said that Vettel had the grand slam advantage of track position at Monaco. The Ferrari simply wasn't fast enough in Canada or Japan. The Mclaren was not fast enough at Monza, I'll have to have a look at Spain, I'm afraid that as usual it wasn't memorable.

McLaren's wins in China and Quebec were down to abnormal conditions. The Ferrari win in the British (not English) GP was the only race of the year where the rules were adhered to, another abnormal condition.

That doesn't really leave very many where other teams were really in competition. Just have a look at the gap between Red Bull in qualifying, it was consistently too good for any driver to generate on his own.

 

[KekeTheKing]

While I agree with the basic premise, Ray takes it to the extreme. He'd have you believe it was a straight fight this year. Any sober analysis would contradict this notion.

Were there flashes of pace from McLaren and Ferrari, absolutely. But when it came to consistent qualifying and GP pace, nobody even held a candle to Red Bull this season.

Just look at the one race where they were forced to scale back their advantage. What do you know? Firmly beaten by the Ferrari.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

Firstly, this isn't a thread that I started.

Secondly, I didn't choose the title of this thread.

I was merely comparing driver eras 1994/1995 vs 2010/2011 in another thread.

Yes, I agree that the RB6 and RB7 had an advantage over an entire season over the other cars. I never said they didn't have an advantage.

The B194 that was provided for Schumacher also had an advantage.

Also Schumacher was dirty in his driving when he purposely took Hill out at Adelaide after hitting the wall.

 

[KekeTheKing]

Firstly, this isn't a thread that I started.

Duly noted.

I guess my point was that it wouldn't have mattered if Nuvolari, Fangio, and Clark had come back from the dead to pilot the Ferrari or McLaren. When you consider the outright pace of the RB7, its bulletproof reliability, and repeatedly lightning fast pit stops, it was always going to be Seb's year.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

I guess my point was that it wouldn't have mattered if Nuvolari, Fangio, and Clark had come back from the dead to pilot the Ferrari or McLaren.

You forgot Senna!

 

[KekeTheKing]

Or did I.............

 

[Dario Resta]

Ya but he was in a Rory Byrne/Ross Brawn car which - at least on his B196 only - had Option 13 and the use of illegal Launch and Traction Control. [Sounds (from Bernie Ecclestone's archival footage as used by makers of the movie "Senna") out of Tosa at Imola confirmed this too.]

Rory Byrne/Ross Brawn were - as a combo - arguably as great, if not greater, than Newey.

Byrne penned 7 title-winning cars and Brawn was involved with 8 title-winning cars.

Rory Byrne, arguably, is one of the three greatest designers in F1 history along with Colin Chapman and Adrian Newey.

So, Vettel may have had Newey...but Schumacher had Byrne AND Brawn AND Option 13.

Raymondo,

You often quote the traction control tripe. Go and check the facts. Traction control, or the option to initiate it were NEVER found on the B194 (Schumacher never drove the B196) Option 13 related to launch control. if you can ever prove THAT was used (which you can't) you may have a glimmer of an argument.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

B194 obviously. It was a friggin' typo!



There's footage - with sound - that makes Schumacher's B194 sound totally different to Verstappen's coming out of Tosa, for instance.

I suggest we deep 6 this thread. It was known that his car - and his car only (i.e. not Verstappen's) - had launch and traction control.

Option 13 has been discussed ad nauseum and i'm tired of discussing it for heavens sake!



This was never my thread. It serves little purpose (other than to goad me on for amusment purposes )

So, I would urge the kind moderators to kill it.

 

[Fenderman]

Ah, now we see the perils of going off topic somewhere else. I wonder if when this happens the Mod's could do us a wee favour and preface the "new" thread with a comment of their own? Perhaps to set a tone for the debate that is likely to follow. Difficult one, but (unusually, I admit) I sympathise with Ray's predicament.

 

[Vortex]

Well its true Ray didn’t start the thread, but he did start the topic, which lead to the mods creating the thread.

 

[FB]

Unfortunately any new posts come in in time order so can't be inserted at the beginning. If someone has a better idea for the thread title I'm happy to change it.