1994 again?
- Thread starter RayInTorontoCanada
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Dario Resta
Podium Finisher
If Ray wants to debate the legality of the B194 based on facts, that's fine by me. If Ray can find ANY proof the B194 had traction control (other than a hunch, Ayrton saying so, or whatever), great. - but none was found in the investigation into Ford Electronics ECU or Benetton's software. Don't go making groundless accusations and then try to bury them.
I'm not saying that traction control was used, but why was it on the car if it wasn't going to be used? In my opinion which is not fact, I think people who say it wasn't used are naive, when you add the fact that drivers said they could hear TC to the fact that the software was found on the car it looks shady to me...
Fenderman
Rooters Reporter
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benetton_Formula
"During the 1994 season, some rival teams claimed Benetton had found a way to violate the FIA-imposed ban on electronic aids, including Traction Control and Launch Control. On investigation, the FIA discovered "start sequence" (launch control) software in the Benetton B194 cars, and a variety of illegal software in rival teams' cars as well. FIA had no evidence the software was ever used, so teams found with the software received little to no punishment. No traction control software was found to be in the Benetton cars, however. Flavio Briatore, Benetton's chief in 1994, said in 2001 that "Our only mistake was that at the time we were too young and people were suspicious"."
Benetton famously promised not to use the software and (as were all the teams under the same suspicion) were allowed to continue to use the Suspect ECU's for the rest of the season as it was deemed too difficult to change or enforce mid season.
I think it's time to desist from Ray-baiting since he has gone to some trouble to modify his posting style since his holiday and I for one appreciate that.
"During the 1994 season, some rival teams claimed Benetton had found a way to violate the FIA-imposed ban on electronic aids, including Traction Control and Launch Control. On investigation, the FIA discovered "start sequence" (launch control) software in the Benetton B194 cars, and a variety of illegal software in rival teams' cars as well. FIA had no evidence the software was ever used, so teams found with the software received little to no punishment. No traction control software was found to be in the Benetton cars, however. Flavio Briatore, Benetton's chief in 1994, said in 2001 that "Our only mistake was that at the time we were too young and people were suspicious"."
Benetton famously promised not to use the software and (as were all the teams under the same suspicion) were allowed to continue to use the Suspect ECU's for the rest of the season as it was deemed too difficult to change or enforce mid season.
I think it's time to desist from Ray-baiting since he has gone to some trouble to modify his posting style since his holiday and I for one appreciate that.
Dario Resta
Podium Finisher
Fenderman,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benetton_Formula
"During the 1994 season, some rival teams claimed Benetton had found a way to violate the FIA-imposed ban on electronic aids, including Traction Control and Launch Control. On investigation, the FIA discovered "start sequence" (launch control) software in the Benetton B194 cars, and a variety of illegal software in rival teams' cars as well. FIA had no evidence the software was ever used, so teams found with the software received little to no punishment. No traction control software was found to be in the Benetton cars, however. Flavio Briatore, Benetton's chief in 1994, said in 2001 that "Our only mistake was that at the time we were too young and people were suspicious"."
Benetton famously promised not to use the software and (as were all the teams under the same suspicion) were allowed to continue to use the Suspect ECU's for the rest of the season as it was deemed too difficult to change or enforce mid season.
I think it's time to desist from Ray-baiting since he has gone to some trouble to modify his posting style since his holiday and I for one appreciate that.
Without wishing to cast any doubt on a Wiki entry's validity, you will notice the FIA discovered that there was "start sequence" software. I'm not arguing that point. It was discovered. Was it used? Who really knows. The point Ray (and I'm not baiting him, far from it) is trying to make is that traction control was used. It wasn't, and couldn't have been, as the Ford ECU and Benetton software didn't support it, as was found by the software company that investigated on the FIA's behalf.
Did the B194 have launch control? Possibly. Did it have traction control ? Definitely not.
The Artist.....
Champion Elect
Dario - Whilst I realise this is getting off the point - the excuse Benetton had for still having the launch control system was that it was easier to leave it in the ECU than re-write the software (As they were still using the same ECU???) I've never read anywhere details about the ECU not supporting it - as the B193 certainly supported traction control.
One thing is definitely true - Verstappen's Benetton never used traction control
RayInTorontoCanada
Banned
This thread originated out of the Vettel 2WDC thread and out of a comparison of Schumacher 1994/95 V Vettel 2010/11.
Two main differences:
1 Vettel has destroyed a very highly-regarded pack of Aces, most of whom are on top of their game (ALO, HAM, BUT, even WEB, perhaps SCH(?)) in a control formula...Schumacher won in a post-Senna (post-Prost) era where there weren't any Aces left and only his Benetton B194 had traction and launch control.
2. Vettel the sort of driver who purposely chopped across his main rival after binning his car into a wall at the last race. Indeed, Vettel was even prepared to move over for Webber in the last race if he (Vettel) wasn't in position to be WDC and as long as Alonso was running 4th or lower.
Vettel
Schumacher
Two main differences:
1 Vettel has destroyed a very highly-regarded pack of Aces, most of whom are on top of their game (ALO, HAM, BUT, even WEB, perhaps SCH(?)) in a control formula...Schumacher won in a post-Senna (post-Prost) era where there weren't any Aces left and only his Benetton B194 had traction and launch control.
2. Vettel the sort of driver who purposely chopped across his main rival after binning his car into a wall at the last race. Indeed, Vettel was even prepared to move over for Webber in the last race if he (Vettel) wasn't in position to be WDC and as long as Alonso was running 4th or lower.
Vettel
Schumacher
Schumacher missed two races due to a ludicrous ban and was disqualified from two more in 1994, and we know that the 1995 Benetton didn't have traction control but Schumacher still blew Herbert as well as their rivals into the weeds, retiring from both the Grands Prix Herbert won.
He then went off to Ferrari to create a dynasty from a team that hadn't won anything for a decade.
Why should be be? I'm afraid, Ray, that Schumacher was an excellent Grand Prix driver.
He then went off to Ferrari to create a dynasty from a team that hadn't won anything for a decade.
Why should be be
? I'm afraid, Ray, that Schumacher was an excellent Grand Prix driver.
RayInTorontoCanada
Banned
We're comparing Vettel 10/11 to Schumacher 94/95, not the Ferrari era which is tainted in itself because of the admittedly special relationship between the FIA and Ferrari.
Or one could say because of the exceptional cars Ferrari built and the extraordinary ability of Michael Schumacher as a driver but hey, ho let's not let a little bit of prejudice get in the way now shall we?
Ray is never going to back down on his anti Schumacher/Alonso/Ferrari views and we all know it was because he's burnt from the Kimi situation so lets not have a whole thread trying to make him admit it.
Let the boy state his facts and have his opinions and if you think they're bias then remember that when he's discussing any other topic with you.
Let the boy state his facts and have his opinions and if you think they're bias then remember that when he's discussing any other topic with you.
RayInTorontoCanada
Banned
My friend they changed some of the rules so that the TV ratings wouldn't get blown to oblivion.
I understand your premise. Max Mosley, however, said Ferrari had a technical veto with the FIA. That means the playing field was hardly level.
Was it?
Did they still have this veto in 2007?
Vortex
Race Winner
And did they ever use it?
Seriously, considering you claim you’re comparing Vettel 10/11 to Schumacher 94/95 you have a hard time sticking within that sentiment, its more like a ‘I hate Schumacher/Ferrari’ thread so anything from anytime will do if it demeans them.
Could you stick to the point?
Seriously, considering you claim you’re comparing Vettel 10/11 to Schumacher 94/95 you have a hard time sticking within that sentiment, its more like a ‘I hate Schumacher/Ferrari’ thread so anything from anytime will do if it demeans them.
Could you stick to the point?
RayInTorontoCanada
Banned
FB, Technical Veto. With the FIA. Yes, there's no doubt they built very good cars...but look at the Michelin situation in late 2003...FIA to the rescue!
Also, I never said Schumacher was a poor driver. He's obviously one of the Top 10 since Nuvolari.
I have Schumacher ahead of Hakkinen All Time. Ahead of Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton All Time at the moment.
No one's saying that Schumacher wasn't anything other than an exceptional talent.
But he was dirty and won his first two titles when there were no proper Aces on the grid.
This thread, again, wasn't my doing...and even if it was, it was comparing the two Germans 1994-95 v 2010-11.
One of us brought up Johnny Herbert
Johnny, though a pretty good driver, was an injured driver who used to walk to his F1 cars with a limp and who, unfortunately, was treated like a piece of crap by Flavio Briatore. So, let's not bring Johnny up.
He'll confirm that he was never allowed to view Schumacher's data whilst Schumacher was privy to all of his.
That's like night and day to how Webber has been treated in 2011. When Vettel crashed his car in qually back in the Spring, RBR had no more new front wings so Webber kept his and Vettel had to use his old wing...yet he still out-qualified Webber (who maintained the use of the new wing.)
Webber obviously felt agrieved after Silverstone 2010...but he had a chance to be World Champion in 2010 and he had the same opportunity in 2011. If Webber was not allowed to view Vettel's data whilst Vettel was allowed to use Webber's, the planet would never hear the end of it.
RayInTorontoCanada
Banned
I'm responding to others.
But perhaps I should "report" any posts not related to 1994/95 and 2010/11?
If I did, i'd be reporting moderators posts to the moderators.
Our dear FB and TBY brought up the Ferrari thingy...So, what do you want me to do?
I suggested we kill this thread. You, however, want it to never end.
Here:I know you're fond of me. Nice way of showing it!
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