Would Hamilton or Alonso have achieved as much in a Red Bull as Vettel has?
- Thread starter Brogan
- Start date
F1 Shift.net
Points Scorer
No question that with the Red Bull car of '10 and '11 that Alonso and Hamilton could have accomplished what Vettel has. Another interesting debate could be "Could Vettel do what Alonso has in the F2012?"
Alonso has driven better this year than I have seen anyone drive, ever. I don't think there is a driver on the grid who could match him relatively this year.
[Edit] Perhaps, Lewis - only perhaps.
[Edit] Perhaps, Lewis - only perhaps.
OK, my opinion.
In 2010, Sebastian Vettel had a spate of mid-season accidents and a run of disappointing form. It lasted from Turkey to Belgium (although it included victory in Valencia). I believe Hamilton and Alonso would have picked up more points in this run.
However, Vettel also had an entirely mistake free run from qualifying at the Singapore Grand Prix to the finish in Abu Dhabi lasting 5 races. I do not believe Lewis Hamilton is capable of keeping a high level of front-running performance in that manner for 4 consecutive Grands Prix.
Fernando Alonso, meanwhile, I feel is not as good a qualifier as Vettel and would thus risk qualifying behind (in 2010, remember) Webber and Hamilton (and Vettel in the Ferrari?).
In summary, for 2010 I believe Hamilton and Alonso would have picked up more points mid-season and less in the run home, giving us a tie.
In 2011, for the same reason I believe Vettel would have picked up more points in the last 5 of 2010, I also believe he picked up more points than either Alonso or Hamilton would have.
As for
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/19458236
In my opinion, it is untrue that Vettel cannot race when not at the front, but true that he does not race except at the front.
In 2010, Sebastian Vettel had a spate of mid-season accidents and a run of disappointing form. It lasted from Turkey to Belgium (although it included victory in Valencia). I believe Hamilton and Alonso would have picked up more points in this run.
However, Vettel also had an entirely mistake free run from qualifying at the Singapore Grand Prix to the finish in Abu Dhabi lasting 5 races. I do not believe Lewis Hamilton is capable of keeping a high level of front-running performance in that manner for 4 consecutive Grands Prix.
Fernando Alonso, meanwhile, I feel is not as good a qualifier as Vettel and would thus risk qualifying behind (in 2010, remember) Webber and Hamilton (and Vettel in the Ferrari?).
In summary, for 2010 I believe Hamilton and Alonso would have picked up more points mid-season and less in the run home, giving us a tie.
In 2011, for the same reason I believe Vettel would have picked up more points in the last 5 of 2010, I also believe he picked up more points than either Alonso or Hamilton would have.
As for
, it has been suggested that Vettel cannot race when not at the front.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/19458236
In my opinion, it is untrue that Vettel cannot race when not at the front, but true that he does not race except at the front.
9 consecutive podiums on debut. If Mercedes give him the best car he'll fall straight back into the racing driver we saw back then - and then some more.
ExtremeNinja - What I'm talking about is having a series of races where victory after victory is strung together, all lights-to-flag, no mistakes, no dramas. Hamilton has never won more than 5 races in a season total, and never more than 2-in-a-row. So to suggest that he's capable of 4-in-a-row, whilst it may be true, is deniable.
I don't think he would struggle with that. Every time he gets a smashing car to play with he does exactly that. Hi lights up like a kid in a candy store and is visibly excited. When you see him like that on a Saturday it's because he knows he's got the machinery to go out and win, and he goes out an d wins. I think the problem for Lewis is not being given machinery to have a long consecutive run of lights to flag victories. The McLarens are very circuit specific in comparison to the Red Bull.
ExtremeNinja - So what happened at the 2008 Hungarian Grand Prix? He'd won the last two and his team were 1 & 2 in qualifying. It was a race that McLaren win on an almost annual basis. And before they both ran into "issues", he was there being beaten by Felipe Massa.
EDIT: And, as a matter of fact, he did ¾ of the "no mistakes" run this year, but ruined it with a massive brain-fart set-up at Spa (with his team-mate winning from pole).
EDIT: And, as a matter of fact, he did ¾ of the "no mistakes" run this year, but ruined it with a massive brain-fart set-up at Spa (with his team-mate winning from pole).
You can't win 'em all, teabagyokel. You're being quite harsh on him, I think. If Massa was beating both of the McLarens who started on the front row you might conclude that he had better race pace. This could be as much down to setup as driver ability, especially in the re-fuelling era.
I think the engineers/team have to take at least some of the blame for that.
Bushi
Race Winner
Perhaps Lewis? Like he had a bad car this year?
mnmracer
Points Scorer
Sorry Brogan, lesson learned 
Well than, rather than implying Webber is an amateur, is that not an indication that the Red Bull doesn't drive itself and not just any driver can jump in and achieve the same? It seems you rather stick to your own idea that the Red Bull is on auto-pilot, and it must be Webber, not Vettel, who performs out-of-the-ordinary.
It is pointless people stating that Hamilton or Alonso would have won the title in 2009 instead of Vettel because the fact of the matter is that Vettel was still only 21 at the start of that season!
2010 was a ridiculous season in terms of the pendulum swinging this way and that but Vettel timed it to perfection.
Hamilton would not have dominated in 2011 because to be honest he was extremely erratic last season. Alonso could possibly have done so last year too.
All three are great drivers but Vettel seems to be edging the others out at the moment as he kept himself in contention this year when his car was not performing (just as Alonso did) and has maximised the potential of the car to the full.
People who question his skill and ability quite frankly have to take their tinted specs off and realise how good Seb really is. I just hope he has a DNF in the next two races to make Brazil worth watching
2010 was a ridiculous season in terms of the pendulum swinging this way and that but Vettel timed it to perfection.
Hamilton would not have dominated in 2011 because to be honest he was extremely erratic last season. Alonso could possibly have done so last year too.
All three are great drivers but Vettel seems to be edging the others out at the moment as he kept himself in contention this year when his car was not performing (just as Alonso did) and has maximised the potential of the car to the full.
People who question his skill and ability quite frankly have to take their tinted specs off and realise how good Seb really is. I just hope he has a DNF in the next two races to make Brazil worth watching
Fenderman
Rooters Reporter
Ditto Brogan . I thought it somewhat amusing that in the quote where LH mentions "hiitting all the apexes" Tom Cary inserts " [the racing line through a corner]" to explain what an apex is. As everyone on Clip The Apex knows, it isn't.
One might think that Cary knows his stuff had he explained, perhaps in a separate sentence, something to the effect that, "an ideal racing line intersects (in most cases) the apexes of the corners so that it is the shortest, cleanest and therefore fastest route around a circuit ..."
Of course, he may just have been tired having been track-side all day long.
One might think that Cary knows his stuff had he explained, perhaps in a separate sentence, something to the effect that, "an ideal racing line intersects (in most cases) the apexes of the corners so that it is the shortest, cleanest and therefore fastest route around a circuit ..."
Of course, he may just have been tired having been track-side all day long.
Since everyone seems so intent on portraying Newey as an almost God-like genius of car design, does that mean that Rory Byrne was a super-genius, since his designs so often beat Newey's?
And how does anyone here know that the Bulls would be the car that they are without the input from Vettel. The obvious answer--they don't! For that matter, neither does LH!
And how does anyone here know that the Bulls would be the car that they are without the input from Vettel. The obvious answer--they don't! For that matter, neither does LH!
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