Would Hamilton or Alonso have achieved as much in a Red Bull as Vettel has?

Discussion in 'Formula One Discussion' started by Brogan, Oct 31, 2012.

?
  1. Hamilton

    2
    3.4%
  2. Alonso

    7
    12.1%
  3. Both

    41
    70.7%
  4. Neither

    8
    13.8%
  1. Brogan

    Brogan Leg end Staff Member

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    There has been a lot of discussion about Vettel and just how good he is and rightly so.
    He is on course to win three WDC titles in a row, something only two other drivers have done in the history of F1.

    For me, several questions which will, unfortunately, never be answered are:

    a) Would either Hamilton or Alonso have achieved the same results if they had been in a Red Bull over the same period?​

    b) How would Vettel have fared if he had been in a McLaren or Ferrari during this time?​

    c) If Vettel had Hamilton or Alonso as a team mate, instead of Webber, would he have come out on top or even won the titles he has? With two top drivers taking points off each other, it makes it a lot easier for other teams to steal titles (see 2007).​

    Of course we'll never know the answers to these questions and it is always the way in F1 that you rarely have the opportunity to see how two top drivers compare in the same car; 2007 was the last time this happened and we all know how that turned out.
    If anything, I would say the result was about right - both Hamilton and Alonso were as good as each other and the results reflected that.

    With regards to the first question, I would venture that both Hamilton and Alonso would probably have achieved as much as Vettel has and consequently Vettel would have been in a similar position to those two if he had been driving for McLaren or Ferrari during this time.

    As for the last question, I have no idea. I have no benchmark against which to judge Vettel, other than Webber, and I don't consider him to be a top tier driver. I suspect it may be similar to Hamilton and Alonso at McLaren in 2007.
     
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  3. ExtremeNinja

    ExtremeNinja Karting amateur Contributor

    On evidence, or lack of, I would say that Hamilton or Alonso in Vettel's seat would have outperformed him. I would be happy to be proved wrong, but at the moment that is an impossibility and so I only offer my opinion.
     
  4. snowy

    snowy Champion Elect

    This is a can of worms, and I feel like reading this thread is going to be like watching a particularly nasty car crash!
     
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  5. sportsman

    sportsman Sidecar racers have the biggest cojones Contributor

    I have to agree with snowy on this one.
    Of course the other side of the coin is how good would Vettel have performed had he been driving a Ferrari or McLaren.
     
  6. Abu Dhabi 2011 proved to me that any one of those two could have done Vettel's job [build a four or five second gap and maintain it for the race].
     
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  7. Josh

    Josh Champion Elect

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    With or without Hamilton's mental issues last year? Because if it is with his mental issues then I doubt he'd have gotten 2 WDC's ;)
     
  8. RickD

    RickD Pole Sitter

    Even I would say Both, but I also think a few other drivers on the grid would also have achieved the same results.
     
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  9. tooncheese

    tooncheese Hans Heyer Contributor

    Using 2007 as a guide we can rate both drivers the same, but there is no guide for having such a dominant car. In 2005 the Renault was a bit slower but more reliable, in 2006 it was only slightly faster. Hamilton won in 2008 with a similar car advantage that Alonso enjoyed. Vettel almost lost 2010 with a much greater car advantage.
     
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  10. KekeTheKing

    KekeTheKing Banned Supporter

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    I'll have to refrain until the job is done in 2012. 3 in a row will be pretty damn impressive no matter what.

    I think most people know where I stand at the current moment though.
     
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  11. ExtremeNinja

    ExtremeNinja Karting amateur Contributor

    Blimey. Perhaps the current results of the poll say more than words need to. 13 to nil at present, all in favour of both Hamilton and Alonso doing a better job than Vettel. I must admit that I didn't expect it to be so unanimous, albeit at this early stage.

    [EDIT] Bit of pedantry but, in the poll, should "both" not be "either"?
     
  12. snowy

    snowy Champion Elect

    As good a job. :)

    The Red Bull is and has been such a powerful tool it would be impossible to say with any conviction that Fernando Alonso would not have won two Championships in a row and be on the brink of another. One can't be quite as emphatic about Lewis, however it is a very reasonable assumption.
     
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  13. Hamberg

    Hamberg FOTA VIP, I've got the avatar to prove it :) Contributor

    Obviously it depends who their team mate was. I'm assuming we are going with Webber? If so both.
     
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  14. Brogan

    Brogan Leg end Staff Member

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    That is incorrect.
    The poll askes whether each one of them "would have achieved as much", which would put them on par with Vettel.
     
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  15. ExtremeNinja

    ExtremeNinja Karting amateur Contributor

    My mistake. Apologies.

    But I think we have to assume when people reply that they mean "at least as a good a job as".

    ;)
     
  16. snowy

    snowy Champion Elect

    For either Fernando or Lewis to have done a worse job you would have to be proposing that Mark Webber is right up there with the greats, since he has made Sebastian look quite ordinary on occasion.

    It would have solved all our problems if Mark Webber had signed for Ferrari and Lewis with Red Bull for 2013. We'd get some definitive answers then.
     
  17. FB

    FB Not my cup of cake Valued Member

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    Not a clue. There's no maybe option...
     
  18. ExtremeNinja

    ExtremeNinja Karting amateur Contributor

    Wombcat first to break rank with consensus. Congratulations. :1st:

    FB The "maybe" would be the equivalent of, "I have no opinion on the matter" and so a no-vote should do the trick. Although you wouldn't be counted without a maybe option. Then again, those with no opinions generally aren't. Fence sitters are largely ignored.

    ;)
     
  19. Incubus

    Incubus Champion Elect

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    Such a difficult question to answer, and not just because different cars, different team environments suits certain drivers' style better than others, but also because certain tracks suit some drivers better than others.

    For example it's perfectly possible that Alonso in a Red Bull this year would have failed to win in India, but won at Monaco. And if Hamilton had driven a Red Bull at Silverstone he could have lapped himself. In fact he might even have driven so fast there he would have met himself coming back.
     
  20. Brogan

    Brogan Leg end Staff Member

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    No, we don't.

    Unless they specifically say so, we can assume they are voting exactly as the poll title suggests.
     
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  21. ExtremeNinja

    ExtremeNinja Karting amateur Contributor

    Oh, come on, Brogan. Do you really think that everybody that voted believes that either Alonso or Hamilton would have scored exactly the same results as Vettel? Fine if you do, but I am inclined to disagree as in my mind that would be a far stretch of the imagination.

    If I asked if football player A or B could score as many goals as football player C where player C scored 5 goals and the person replying thought that player A could have scored 6, then they could only reply with "yes" given that my question did not allow for a more expansive answer.
     

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