Would Hamilton or Alonso have achieved as much in a Red Bull as Vettel has?
- Thread starter Brogan
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Bushi
Race Winner
That's one of the things i don't like about Alonso and Hamilton. They both praise each others performances of their own and from each other far to easly. And that's why i am for Vettel and Raikkonen, cause they would never talk in that way about other drivers or their own performance.
tranquility2k9
Podium Finisher
Not sure if this quote has been posted, but it's quite interesting from Hamilton:
“I think lots of people in the paddock wish they could have Adrian [Newey’s] car so they could show that they’re just as competitive as Sebastian. Fernando, for me, is more accurate. He hits all the apexes. Sebastian misses four apexes on a single lap and still goes quickest. He goes off and he still goes quickest. And I think ‘Holy crap, I couldn’t do that lap even if I was on the limit’. His car is just that far ahead of everyone else’s.”
“I think lots of people in the paddock wish they could have Adrian [Newey’s] car so they could show that they’re just as competitive as Sebastian. Fernando, for me, is more accurate. He hits all the apexes. Sebastian misses four apexes on a single lap and still goes quickest. He goes off and he still goes quickest. And I think ‘Holy crap, I couldn’t do that lap even if I was on the limit’. His car is just that far ahead of everyone else’s.”
Fenderman
Rooters Reporter
"Well, thankfully the Red Bull has suddenly turned to crap and only Seb's ability to get 110% out of the car enabled him to place it 3rd in FP3 behind the McLaren's. Second raters Hamilton and Button took 1st and 2nd respectovely as their cars have suddenly become the best of the pack, at Abu Dhabi at least.Can Adrian Newey and his engineers pull something out their hat for qualifying? If not can Seb' get another 10% out of what is clearly a dog of a car this weekend?"
Rad Booton, Rootersport.
Rad Booton, Rootersport.
Whilst I understand what Lewis is getting at I would have thought that having had the best car in the field at points this season and not having produced the results Seb does when he has it that he give a bit more respect.
Its all politics anyways. I'm sure when Fernando is putting the results in he'll talk about how good Vettel is!
Its all politics anyways. I'm sure when Fernando is putting the results in he'll talk about how good Vettel is!
Fenderman
Rooters Reporter
There is a behaviour that since the demise of 606 has become increasingly common on Clip. I refer to knee-jerking to selective quotes, often taken out of context, to justify ill feeling toward particular drivers or personnel in the sport. For the record Hamilton has not been dismissive nor disrespectful of Vettel's talent or ability. It is simply that his comments (or anyone else's for that matter) are rarely quoted in their entirety by the media who love to selectively edit for the sake of stirring controversy and their column inches.
For example from http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20192741 :
Quote: Hamilton also acknowledged Vettel's quality but has emphasised his belief that a lot of his recent performance is down to the car improvements guided by Red Bull's chief technical officer Adrian Newey, F1's pre-eminent aerodynamic designer.
Hamilton said: "Sebastian has been very consistent and the team and Adrian have done an amazing job in this last part of the season." End quote.
A bit more thought and less presumption before posting would not go amiss.
For example from http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20192741 :
Quote: Hamilton also acknowledged Vettel's quality but has emphasised his belief that a lot of his recent performance is down to the car improvements guided by Red Bull's chief technical officer Adrian Newey, F1's pre-eminent aerodynamic designer.
Hamilton said: "Sebastian has been very consistent and the team and Adrian have done an amazing job in this last part of the season." End quote.
A bit more thought and less presumption before posting would not go amiss.
Hm...
Change one bit of history you change almost everything.
I don't know who would have achieved what with situations reversed.
The 2010 season was up and down that it could have affected either Alonso and Hamilton mentally more than it did Vettel who bounced back tremendously after having a slump, major reliability issues and being labelled a crash kid etc.
Alonso was not perfect by all means in 2010, but people are quick to blame the Ferrari strategists because of the last race. Alonso too had a bad run, and that was in the early part of the season to the middle when the car was competitive.
Hamilton was nearly perfect until Monza and then had a bad run too with the car slipping away from him, also had a fair few reliability issues.
There's also the fact that Alonso was gifted a victory, and Massa was demoted down to Number 2, therefore no challenge at all from the second Ferrari driver. That would not have happened at Red Bull or McLaren, and I doubt it would have happened with Vettel or Hamilton at Ferrari.
I think Hamilton would have won this season, and not Alonso if in the Red Bull car.
2011 I think both would have won, as for the margin? I don't know, I don't think they would have replicated Vettel, as Vettel was on top of the Pirelli tyres and blown diffuser compared to the rest.
I'm not suggesting that Vettel is better than Alonso and Hamilton by this. It's just judging by the way the seasons have went, and I've also taken a few other things into factor.
I have contradicted myself as in the pole I voted Alonso.
The main thing is, you can't compare.
What would the development rate been like for the top 3 teams?
Would Massa be demoted to number 2 that early on if Vettel or Hamilton where in the Ferrari?
Would Webber be demoted to number 2 as early as Massa with Alonso onboard?
Would the cracked chassis which left Vettel in mid-season slump have been found earlier with the other drivers on board?
How would have Alonso fared in qualifying in a Red Bull?
Would Hamilton have kept his head if the title run in for 2010 was as close as it was like Vettel did?
Would have the 2011 car been as dominant as it was with Alonso or Hamilton driving for Red Bull?
Would they have got on top of the car as quickly as Vettel did?
So many questions to be answered, so I'm not sure, and would like to sit on a fence in a field.
As for Vettel at Ferrari, would he have achieved the same as Alonso? No, Massa in my opinion wouldn't have got demoted in 2010, making competition harder.
What about McLaren? I think he would have came out on top and achieve the same or more than what Hamilton did, as Vettel seems to be great mentally, and we have seen Hamilton the past two years make erratic mistakes and decisions.
Change one bit of history you change almost everything.
I don't know who would have achieved what with situations reversed.
The 2010 season was up and down that it could have affected either Alonso and Hamilton mentally more than it did Vettel who bounced back tremendously after having a slump, major reliability issues and being labelled a crash kid etc.
Alonso was not perfect by all means in 2010, but people are quick to blame the Ferrari strategists because of the last race. Alonso too had a bad run, and that was in the early part of the season to the middle when the car was competitive.
Hamilton was nearly perfect until Monza and then had a bad run too with the car slipping away from him, also had a fair few reliability issues.
There's also the fact that Alonso was gifted a victory, and Massa was demoted down to Number 2, therefore no challenge at all from the second Ferrari driver. That would not have happened at Red Bull or McLaren, and I doubt it would have happened with Vettel or Hamilton at Ferrari.
I think Hamilton would have won this season, and not Alonso if in the Red Bull car.
2011 I think both would have won, as for the margin? I don't know, I don't think they would have replicated Vettel, as Vettel was on top of the Pirelli tyres and blown diffuser compared to the rest.
I'm not suggesting that Vettel is better than Alonso and Hamilton by this. It's just judging by the way the seasons have went, and I've also taken a few other things into factor.
I have contradicted myself as in the pole I voted Alonso.
The main thing is, you can't compare.
What would the development rate been like for the top 3 teams?
Would Massa be demoted to number 2 that early on if Vettel or Hamilton where in the Ferrari?
Would Webber be demoted to number 2 as early as Massa with Alonso onboard?
Would the cracked chassis which left Vettel in mid-season slump have been found earlier with the other drivers on board?
How would have Alonso fared in qualifying in a Red Bull?
Would Hamilton have kept his head if the title run in for 2010 was as close as it was like Vettel did?
Would have the 2011 car been as dominant as it was with Alonso or Hamilton driving for Red Bull?
Would they have got on top of the car as quickly as Vettel did?
So many questions to be answered, so I'm not sure, and would like to sit on a fence in a field.
As for Vettel at Ferrari, would he have achieved the same as Alonso? No, Massa in my opinion wouldn't have got demoted in 2010, making competition harder.
What about McLaren? I think he would have came out on top and achieve the same or more than what Hamilton did, as Vettel seems to be great mentally, and we have seen Hamilton the past two years make erratic mistakes and decisions.
..............I should have voted for Lewis......
Fenderman whilst I agree with your sentiment I'm afraid all your talk of the demise 606 etc etc I find slightly offensive. I'm afraid with all the will in the world I don't have time to search out and find every interview and therefore if a poster posts a segment of an interview on a topic in rrference to the topic I have to assume they have read the relevent interview and are posting all the relevent information and base my reaction on that. I have no reason to believe Tranquility would not do that so that is how I reacted. If this offended then I am sorry but a better way to approach me with this would have been to quote the relevent part of the interview and said actually this is what was said I woild have come back such as I am now and say "ahhhh ok. Thats morr what I would have expected to hear" being as I am a reasonable man. Talk of trends and 606 is only likely to get peoples backs up old chap.
As for the 'full' Lewis quote it is nice to see respect between the drivers however I do think that this recent love in between Fernando and Lewis is media games to wind up Seb. Something Fernando certainly has a history with where his rivals are concerned.
As for the 'full' Lewis quote it is nice to see respect between the drivers however I do think that this recent love in between Fernando and Lewis is media games to wind up Seb. Something Fernando certainly has a history with where his rivals are concerned.
Fenderman
Rooters Reporter
Thank you for your response RasputinLives . Much appreciated.
To be clear, my comment was not directed at any one individual in particular and tranquility2k9 's post is not the issue I'm concerned about. It is about how quotes are actually used. I can understand and expect my criticism to elicit a certain level of negative reaction from folks but that was a risk I had to take. On some other threads it has been more of an issue with some posters taking it out on each other. All I am asking is that a little more care is taken to extend the respect that we generally have for other, here on Clip, to the people directly involved in F1 and the other sports about which we have the freedom to comment.
Clip The Apex stands head and shoulders above the competition. The quality of Clip's members and the debates and discussions are streets ahead of what I see elsewhere. However, none of us are infallible and on occasion we all overstep one boundary or another. I am as careful as I know how to be when posting.
Many times I abort posting a comment when I recognise that I too am knee jerking. So I appreciate and welcome being challenged and brought to task when I slip up here and there. The bottom line is that we never stop learning, especially in this age of mass communication.
If my earlier post caused offence, then I apologise. However, on this occasion I must stand by what I said.
By the way, I'm not suggesting that we stop taking the piss out of anyone. That would kill Rooters in heartbeat
To be clear, my comment was not directed at any one individual in particular and tranquility2k9 's post is not the issue I'm concerned about. It is about how quotes are actually used. I can understand and expect my criticism to elicit a certain level of negative reaction from folks but that was a risk I had to take. On some other threads it has been more of an issue with some posters taking it out on each other. All I am asking is that a little more care is taken to extend the respect that we generally have for other, here on Clip, to the people directly involved in F1 and the other sports about which we have the freedom to comment.
Clip The Apex stands head and shoulders above the competition. The quality of Clip's members and the debates and discussions are streets ahead of what I see elsewhere. However, none of us are infallible and on occasion we all overstep one boundary or another. I am as careful as I know how to be when posting.
Many times I abort posting a comment when I recognise that I too am knee jerking. So I appreciate and welcome being challenged and brought to task when I slip up here and there. The bottom line is that we never stop learning, especially in this age of mass communication.
If my earlier post caused offence, then I apologise. However, on this occasion I must stand by what I said.
By the way, I'm not suggesting that we stop taking the piss out of anyone. That would kill Rooters in heartbeat
Yes. The reliability has been quite poor as I am sure you would agree.
Dizzi
Podium Finisher
I voted for both. I think Vettel, Alonso & Hamilton are by far the class of the field at the moment & pretty equal.
All 3 seem to have the aptitude to drive around problems in a car that other drivers just whinge about.
I klnow the sport is man & machine but there seems to be so much more emphasis on the machine bit nowadays than drivers. Going off tangent now but personally I would ban pit-car communication unless in an emergency & let the drivers decided how the car is going instead of constant feedback from engineers. For this I tip my hat to Kimi.
All 3 seem to have the aptitude to drive around problems in a car that other drivers just whinge about.
I klnow the sport is man & machine but there seems to be so much more emphasis on the machine bit nowadays than drivers. Going off tangent now but personally I would ban pit-car communication unless in an emergency & let the drivers decided how the car is going instead of constant feedback from engineers. For this I tip my hat to Kimi.
This is why I stopped viewing 606. It was quite disturbing to honest. I've been searching for F1 forums with members that are not possessed of odious sentiment towards drivers, but that truly love motor sport and can see a drivers talent (or lack of) judging by the drivers actual performance and not the colour of his skin or country of origin.
snowy
Champion Elect
We just don't know how superb or above average Sebastian is. It will take a miracle to ascertain such information in the short term. A spell teamed up with Jenson Button, Lewis Hamilton or Fernando Alonso would give us a clue. I have written to Bernie demanding that he "make it so"... as yet he has not replied...
Rasputinlives
He can certainly read anything that has dollar signs attached!
He can certainly read anything that has dollar signs attached!
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