Head To Head Jenson Button vs Lewis Hamilton

[Cookinflatsix]

Err... Is it because Martin Whitmarsh is in love with Jenson Button?

Interesting notion, but do you have any proof?

Has anyone ever come up with a reason McLaren, or anyone at McLaren, would want to shaft their own driver?

I can't believe they are out to shaft their own prodigy, I just think its obvious that they provide for JB at the frequent disadvantage to LH, I can't work out why this is

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Interesting notion, but do you have any proof?

Here is a good place to start

http://cliptheapex.com/threads/is-martin-whitmarsh-in-love-with-jenson-button.3661/page-2#post-77727

 

[Slyboogy]

Is Danica Patrick about to sign for them?

I hope so...big armed Georgie Thompson isn't living up to expectations.

 

[OnTheLimit]

Notwithstanding my previous comments relating to China 2007, we are two races in to the new season and Hamilton has been left out too long on old rubber two races running.

How do we know if it was the teams call? It could have been his own decision

 

[Fenderman]

No.

Here's another question:
Has anyone ever been able to rationally explain why McLaren insist on keeping Hamilton out longer than necessary, compromising his race?

It started at China in 2007 and seems to have become a common theme.

Rootersport has a theory ... In Other News ... There is a clause in the small print of GB’s MacLawrence contract – Clause 4, which states: “To get the best performance from Gentle Buttman, MacLawrence will take all reasonable and possibly some unreasonable steps to ensure that Gentle feels ... "

 

[Viscount]

No.

Here's another question:
Has anyone ever been able to rationally explain why McLaren insist on keeping Hamilton out longer than necessary, compromising his race?

It started at China in 2007 and seems to have become a common theme.

http://www.mclaren.com/formula1?expand=1

This is how the 3 main pitstop phases played out over the radio between the McLaren Engineers and the drivers. For this race at least it seemed mainly to be up to the drivers when to pit.

Pit: "Ferrari in."
Pit » BUT: "The rain is getting heavier again. Other cars are pitting for full wets."
Pit » HAM: "Can we have an update on the conditions? How are the tyres?"
Hamilton: "The rain is getting heavier, but it's okay. The car is aquaplaning in places, but it's okay."
Button: "Box this lap."
Jenson pits for full wets. [Lap 4]
Hamilton: "I'm starting to aquaplane."
Pit » HAM: "Jenson has just pitted, but the Red Bulls are still on inters."
Pit » HAM: "Other cars are going faster on full wets. We think we should box this lap. Please confirm."
Hamilton: "Okay, box this lap." [Lap 5]


Pit » HAM: "Some cars might come in for inters quite soon. What are your thoughts?"
Hamilton: "It's slightly wetter than when we started the race, but it's probably okay for inters."
Pit » BUT: "Box this lap for inters!" [Lap 13]
Pit » HAM: "About 5 cars have stopped for inters, including Jenson. Keep us informed of conditions."
Hamilton: "It's good for inters. Box this lap." [Lap 14]


Pit » HAM: "We still think there could be more rain to come. We want to keep going on these tyres."
Button: "These tyres will be no good if it rains."
Pit » BUT: "Okay. Some cars have switched to slick tyres and they are quicker. We think it's ready for slicks."
Pit » BUT: "Box this lap. Slick tyres."
Button: "How long until the rain?"
Pit » BUT: "We can't be sure, Jenson. We think this is the right thing to do."
Pit: "Jenson is pitlane entry now." [Lap 39]
The guys on slicks are now 5s per lap faster than those on intermediates...
Pit » HAM: "Lewis, we need to box this lap. ALO has pitted for dries, as have the cars behind."
Hamilton: "Box this lap okay." [Lap 41]

 

[Fenderman]

http://www.mclaren.com/formula1?expand=1

This is how the 3 main pitstop phases played out over the radio between the McLaren Engineers and the drivers. For this race at least it seemed mainly to be up to the drivers when to pit.

Not quite cut and dried as drivers making the decisions.

In the first cluster of comm's Button is informed by his engineer about the conditions and then instructed to box. Hamilton is asked to tell his pit about his veiw of the conditions and only after further comm's and info' is he advised to pit ...a lap later.

In the second cluster hamilton is asked for his thoughts whilst Button is instructed to pit ... for inters' (based on hamilton's reply perhaps?). Further info from pit to Hamilton and instructed to pit again a lap later than Button.

Similar approach in the third cluster of comm's.

 

[Viscount]

Not quite cut and dried as drivers making the decisions.

In the first cluster of comm's Button is informed by his engineer about the conditions and then instructed to box. Hamilton is asked to tell his pit about his veiw of the conditions and only after further comm's and info' is he advised to pit ...a lap later.

In the second cluster hamilton is asked for his thoughts whilst Button is instructed to pit ... for inters' (based on hamilton's reply perhaps?). Further info from pit to Hamilton and instructed to pit again a lap later than Button.

Similar approach in the third cluster of comm's.

True it's not quite cut and dried. Also, for some reason I was thinking that Button asked to pit in the 2nd cluster rather than the pit telling him to.

I've just been looking even more into the pit strategies and Hamilton was the very last car out of everyone (just behind Perez) to switch from inters to dry tyres in the closing stages. The time difference between worn inters and the warmed up medium or hard tyre was around 10 seconds per lap. Ricciardo and Karthikeyan were the first cars to pit for dry tyres on lap 37 and Ricciardo's first proper lap on the dry tyres on lap 39 (when most cars pitted) was 4 seconds faster than the leaders, even Karthikeyan in the HRT was lapping faster than Hamilton between laps 39-41!

Which leads back to Brogan's question as to why Hamilton is kept out longer than necessary, I have no rational explanation.

 

[Brogan]

Very, very interesting and bears out what we saw on the video.

So Hamilton/McLaren query the tyres, Button is told to pit and Hamilton is told to pit later.
In every case.

I'm not one for conspiracy theories (usually), but something isn't right there.

How on earth can all of the computers and strategists justify an HRT lapping faster then a McLaren for several laps?

As Brundle always says, you always need to be on the right tyres at the right time.

 

[gethinceri]

For the first two stops the team asked Lewis first about tyres, according to the above transcript which may or may not be accurate.

 

[Hamberg]

the reason why Button makes the calls for the pit stops in changeable conditions better than Hamilton is because his style for gentle feel and smoothness from that tyres where just a slight imperfection makes him take that decision

Whereas Lewis thought I am in the lead and I 'd just bolt out. I don;t think even if Hamilton got in front of Alonso he would have won either because he just slow after a few laps in mid race so would have probably had both Perez and Alonso right behind for a lot of laps

Except in this case this is untrue. The live feed from McLaren showed Button was told he was going onto slicks. Button questioned that decision and asked if there would be more rain. The pit wall said they believed it was the right decision as Ricciardo (I think it was him) had changed and was putting in faster times.

Hamilton was out one/two more laps after he was given this message. It made absolutely no sense to me whatsoever. I genuinely thought they'd bring Hamilton and Button in on the same lap.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Pit » HAM: "We still think there could be more rain to come. We want to keep going on these tyres."
Button: "These tyres will be no good if it rains."
Pit » BUT: "Okay. Some cars have switched to slick tyres and they are quicker. We think it's ready for slicks."
Pit » BUT: "Box this lap. Slick tyres."
Button: "How long until the rain?"
Pit » BUT: "We can't be sure, Jenson. We think this is the right thing to do."
Pit: "Jenson is pitlane entry now." [Lap 39]
The guys on slicks are now 5s per lap faster than those on intermediates...
Pit » HAM: "Lewis, we need to box this lap. ALO has pitted for dries, as have the cars behind."
Hamilton: "Box this lap okay." [Lap 41]

Now why on earth are they reacting to what Alonso has just done, when they had the same information that made it obvious to Ferrari, and me, that they should come in for slicks? They should be reacting to what is obvious from the live timing not copying what their closest rivals are doing a lap later. You don't win races by playing follow the leader. Beggars belief.

 

[Brogan]

Here's the lap chart. I've truncated the top of the chart for the safety car laps to make it easier to see the important content.

It can be seen just how much time Hamilton lost on his last stop due to being kept out for an additional 2 laps; he lost almost 10 seconds on lap 41 alone.

 

[Il_leone]

No.

Here's another question:
Has anyone ever been able to rationally explain why McLaren insist on keeping Hamilton out longer than necessary, compromising his race?

It started at China in 2007 and seems to have become a common theme.

Yes and Ron Dennis was the boss - the man who supposedly treats Lewis like a son at Mclaren

 

[RasputinLives]

Whilst I find that Radio transcript interesting I think you do have to look at the cars around to see a little bit into decisions. Mclaren I don't think ever believed they were racing anyone but the Red Bulls so thought they were playing it safe by covering them off with Lewis. They'd argue that they were using Jenson as Lewis's guinea pig for the new tyres.

As for the second one if not for Massa getting in the way Lewis would have been out front with Alonso just tucked in behind him meaning Jenson would have missed out but bringing Massa in at the same time coursed a hold up. I don't think Ferrari meant it but I'm sure they'll think of doing it again now they've figured it! lol.

That radio message does show they treat their drivers different when talking about tyres. Jenson appears to have the last word in his where as Lewis seems to get told. Why this is I don't know as you would asusme the driver knows best (and hey it seems to work for Jenson). I'm not claiming conspiracy theory though I just think its working practice. You ever been working somewhere and someone new joins your team and decides to do something a little bit different to you and it turns out to be more efficent and then you have to adjust your working style to the new way of working? Maybe under Ron the pitwall always had the last say where as since Jenson has come in he's convinced Martin to change that a little. I dunno I'm just guessing. Anyways if everything had run smooth with Mclaren stops Lewis would have been out ahead.....just.

I think someone stated that Hamilton had a brilliant drive to keep in front of Button, can I just say both of them were pretty awful on Sunday. Jenson by his own admission had a terrible weekend and took all the life out of his new tyres in frustration after getting his new nose cone and had to pit again. Once again Lewis finds people in front of him and his head goes down - there is now way Perez and Alonso should have been pulling away from him at that rate I just don't get it.

So for me Jenson, Lewis and Mclaren completely choked this weekend.

What I don't get is how Mclaren come up with their thinking - true we're getting it second hand through the media but when Jenson has taken his nose cone off, wrecked a set of tyres and had to have an extra stop and there telling the media "Jenson is still in this race" you have to wonder what they are thinking. The same when they're telling Ted Kravitz that Lewis is going to get Perez at the end when Perez is bearing down on Alonso whislt Lewis is slipping back into the clutches of the Red Bull! You have to wonder how their minds work!

 

[Il_leone]

Except in this case this is untrue. The live feed from McLaren showed Button was told he was going onto slicks. Button questioned that decision and asked if there would be more rain. The pit wall said they believed it was the right decision as Ricciardo (I think it was him) had changed and was putting in faster times.

Hamilton was out one/two more laps after he was given this message. It made absolutely no sense to me whatsoever. I genuinely thought they'd bring Hamilton and Button in on the same lap.

Button was near the back so if the gamble did not work he would still be near the back whereas if they got LEwis in and he dropped back I am sure a lot of people would have panned MClaren for ruining Lewis' race and really Hamilton could only follow what Alonso did to cover him up

 

[Brogan]

there is now way Perez and Alonso should have been pulling away from him at that rate I just don't get it.

Presumably you missed Brundle's comment about why the Ferrari was so good in those conditions?

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Button was near the back so if the gamble did not work he would still be near the back whereas if they got LEwis in and he dropped back I am sure a lot of people would have panned MClaren for ruining Lewis' race and really Hamilton could only follow what Alonso did to cover him up

That is if you consider it to be a gamble. I would consider it more risky to keep your driver out on shot inters when people at the back of the pack are going 5s a lap faster on new slicks.

I'm not sure I understand where you have got the notion of gamble from. It was a straight forward no-brainer to put him on slicks, not a gamble at all.

 

[Brogan]

The inters were already slicks at that point.

Just very slow slicks.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Whilst I find that Radio transcript interesting I think you do have to look at the cars around to see a little bit into decisions. Mclaren I don't think ever believed they were racing anyone but the Red Bulls so thought they were playing it safe by covering them off with Lewis. They'd argue that they were using Jenson as Lewis's guinea pig for the new tyres.

As for the second one if not for Massa getting in the way Lewis would have been out front with Alonso just tucked in behind him meaning Jenson would have missed out but bringing Massa in at the same time coursed a hold up. I don't think Ferrari meant it but I'm sure they'll think of doing it again now they've figured it! lol.

That radio message does show they treat their drivers different when talking about tyres. Jenson appears to have the last word in his where as Lewis seems to get told. Why this is I don't know as you would asusme the driver knows best (and hey it seems to work for Jenson). I'm not claiming conspiracy theory though I just think its working practice. You ever been working somewhere and someone new joins your team and decides to do something a little bit different to you and it turns out to be more efficent and then you have to adjust your working style to the new way of working? Maybe under Ron the pitwall always had the last say where as since Jenson has come in he's convinced Martin to change that a little. I dunno I'm just guessing. Anyways if everything had run smooth with Mclaren stops Lewis would have been out ahead.....just.

I think someone stated that Hamilton had a brilliant drive to keep in front of Button, can I just say both of them were pretty awful on Sunday. Jenson by his own admission had a terrible weekend and took all the life out of his new tyres in frustration after getting his new nose cone and had to pit again. Once again Lewis finds people in front of him and his head goes down - there is now way Perez and Alonso should have been pulling away from him at that rate I just don't get it.

So for me Jenson, Lewis and Mclaren completely choked this weekend.

What I don't get is how Mclaren come up with their thinking - true we're getting it second hand through the media but when Jenson has taken his nose cone off, wrecked a set of tyres and had to have an extra stop and there telling the media "Jenson is still in this race" you have to wonder what they are thinking. The same when they're telling Ted Kravitz that Lewis is going to get Perez at the end when Perez is bearing down on Alonso whislt Lewis is slipping back into the clutches of the Red Bull! You have to wonder how their minds work!

Raspy. If you are stating that Lewis was told when to pit for tyres then at which point of the race do you think that Lewis "choked"? As far as I can see, the only error Lewis made in the entire race was going a foot over his marks in the last pitstop. The only way he was going to beat the two faster cars in front of him was through good strategy which you have already explained was out of his hands.