Renault out of European GP

Jen

Here be dragons.
Contributor
Knee jerk reaction - if Massa hadn't been injured yesterday this wouldn't have happened.

Another incident of the "nanny state" - for God's sake it's a dangerous sport and nothing will make it anything other.
 

Jen

Here be dragons.
Contributor
Brogan said:
Reading the FIA official report, it wuold appear the team knew they had sent him out with an unsafe wheel:
http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/f1_media/Documents/hun09_document_45.pdf

Considering what happened with Henry Surtees last week and Felipe yesterday you can see how this could be classed as dangerously negligent.
Bro, the whole sport is "dangerously negligent" if you think about it. It's that edge that gives it the kudos and many of it's fans.

I watched the Moto-GP round at Donington this afternoon - bodies flying everywhere. Will any of those teams be penalised for allowing their riders to possibly impede/unseat other riders by falling off? Or will they be asked to tether their guys to the bikes, just in case.

I know I'm being facetious, but life is dangerous and F1 a little more so - and I'm sure all of the drivers are aware that their passion could be the death of them, which is why I'm appaled that the FIA want to try and sterilize their need to drive and compete.
 

Brogan

🦶 Leg end
Staff member
jenov2003 said:
Bro, the whole sport is "dangerously negligent" if you think about it.
I would disagree with that.

Motorsport by its very nature is dangerous but risk should be minimised wherever possible and the lack of serious injury or death in F1 over the last decade or so is testament to the improvements in safety that have been made.

Driving around with a wheel that hasn't been secured properly is increasing the risk and is negligent.
The FIA would seem to agree, hence the punishment.

It's harsh on Nelsinho as he did nothing wrong.
I doubt he'll still be with Renault by then anyway though...

Edit: Renault are appealing: http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/f1_media/Documents/hun09_document_47.pdf
 

teabagyokel

#dejavu
Valued Member
Brogan said:
jenov2003 said:
Bro, the whole sport is "dangerously negligent" if you think about it.
I would disagree with that.

Motorsport by its very nature is dangerous but risk should be minimised wherever possible and the lack of serious injury or death in F1 over the last decade or so is testament to the improvements in safety that have been made.

Driving around with a wheel that hasn't been secured properly is increasing the risk and is negligent.
The FIA would seem to agree, hence the punishment.
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teabagyokel said:
I hear what you are all saying about driver deaths being inevitable, but in my opinion the sport's no.1 priority should be, and credit Max Moseley is, to make the probability of such an occurrance as minimal as possible.
I agree with Brogan as this quote from another topic suggests. It would be remiss of the FIA, and a neglection of their duty, for allowing Renault to get away with sending wheels down the track. Wheels are generally the biggest killers in motorsport and it is daft to allow the teams to knowingly allow a car on track with an unattached wheel.

In the sense of the crime reported by the FIA, a one-race ban is a just sentence.

Fatalities may be inevitable, but creating dangerous situations should be discouraged, and absence from a potentially top-dollar race for Renault in Valencia is an appropriate response.

However, I fear the appeal will be successful.
 

Jen

Here be dragons.
Contributor
Brogan said:
jenov2003 said:
Bro, the whole sport is "dangerously negligent" if you think about it.
I would disagree with that.

Motorsport by its very nature is dangerous but risk should be minimised wherever possible and the lack of serious injury or death in F1 over the last decade or so is testament to the improvements in safety that have been made.

Driving around with a wheel that hasn't been secured properly is increasing the risk and is negligent.
The FIA would seem to agree, hence the punishment.

It's harsh on Nelsinho as he did nothing wrong.
I doubt he'll still be with Renault by then anyway though...

Edit: Renault are appealing: http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/f1_media/Documents/hun09_document_47.pdf
IMO risk has been minimised, perhaps to the detriment of the sport - I'm not saying I want to see death or injury - but the mere fact that you are travelling at 200mph is fairly indicative that you are on the edge of "safety".

We have yet to hear the FIA's evidence that the team knew that the wheel was not secured properly and FA believed that he had a puncture (or so we are led to believe). Patently he was trying to get back to the pits, without knowing that his wheel was about to escape imminently.

What's Nelsinho got to do with this anyway - he's dead in the water.

If you want to see true negligence, just look at TR running Jaime unspellable in a full-blown F1 race with absolutely no experience of the car, the circuit or the protocols. Yes, he did well, but it could have led to carnage - which is more stupid? Should either be punished?
 

teabagyokel

#dejavu
Valued Member
jenov2003 said:
If you want to see true negligence, just look at TR running Jaime unspellable in a full-blown F1 race with absolutely no experience of the car, the circuit or the protocols.
I believe the FIA granted a superlicence to Algusueri, hence he has passed some tests to detirmine his suitability. If he was compromising safety the FIA could withdraw the superlicence. (see Yuji Ide)
 

Brogan

🦶 Leg end
Staff member
The problem as always is consistency.

Last year at Magny-Cours, Kimi's exhaust was hanging off and nothing was done about it, despite him pitting for fuel and tyres. It eventually fell off onto the circuit and fortunately didn't cause an accident.
There was no penalty for that particular incident.

Both Ferrari and the stewards were negligent that day as neither of them addressed the problem and took steps to minimise the risk.

One could argue that was just as dangerous as Alonso's wheel today.
 

Brogan

🦶 Leg end
Staff member
jenov2003 said:
If you want to see true negligence, just look at TR running Jaime unspellable in a full-blown F1 race with absolutely no experience of the car, the circuit or the protocols.
He has done some straight line tests so does know the car a little.
He has driven at Hungary in other series so knows the circuit well.
The general "protocols" are the same for F1 as they are for other series so no problem there.

Pedantic perhaps but using your argument that he was unfit to drive, you could say the same about Alonso when he collapsed at the end of a race from dehydration. If he had blacked out during the race...
 

Galahad

Not a Moderator
Valued Member
Now, as it happens I agree with this penalty - the team should have told Alonso to pull over immediately as soon as it became clear that the wheel wasn't properly secured.

However, once again the consistency comes under question - wasn't there a very similar incident in Melbourne when Vettel continued to drive around in the late stages with a heavily damaged car. If I remember correctly, on that occasion the team were given a fine, nothing more (Vettel's grid penalty was given for something else).

So, I'm frustrated nonetheless.
 

Brogan

🦶 Leg end
Staff member
That's right GM.
The grid penalty was for the actual collision, the fine was for driving the car with only 3 wheels.

And as I posted earlier, Kimi and Ferrari weren't penalised for the exhaust last year.

I suspect Henry Surtees' and Felipe Massa's accidents are to account for why Renault were so heavily punished.
Hopefully in future a more consistent approach will be adopted by the stewards.....well, we can always hope.
 

bogaTYR

Points Scorer
even LH with a damaged floorboard kept on going. maybe there should be clear rules for what to do in situations like that. i know, i always recall schumie in 5th gear as one of the highlights of F1 driving but at the same time, it is slightly amd when you think about it.

consistency seems to be the best word really.

is there anything in any rule or regulations regarding this kind of thing?
 

cider_and_toast

Exulted Lord High Moderator of the Apex
Staff member
Premium Contributor
I think it's down to the race stewards and the clerk of the course Boga.

In the bag of flags that the marshals have is a black flag with an orange circle. I have no idea when this was last used in F1 but it is there. Its definition is:

"Shown with a number board to indicate mechanical problems of which the driver may not be aware. Driver must return to the pits on the next lap."

Now why this wasn't shown to Kimi at France last year is any ones guess.

As has been pointed out in many posts "consistancy" is the key here.
 

bogaTYR

Points Scorer
thats the meatball CaT. i cannot recall any use of it in F1. but i do remember gilles villeneuve one day hitting a barrier on purpose to get rid of a broken front wing thus preventing the meatball.

from the internet:

Michael Schumacher was shown the 'meatball' flag at the 2003 Australian
GP.

"The German, however, had run wide at turn 12 and as a result his car
had been damaged, with the bargeboard hanging from the right side of
the car. As a consequence he got a black and orange flag that forced
him to come into the pits to repair his car. The German, however,
took the opportunity to refuel his car, which suggested he had
planned to pit again anyway."
 

Andrea_Moda_Rules

Podium Finisher
Hello im back after a little time away

terrible weekend to come back here too after massa's unfortunate accident

Can i just ask for a little calm here, it seems like in the heat of the moment people are getting a bit ahead of themselves with people saying Renault were negligent and in a another thread saying that Barrcihello, Brawn and Button should of pulled of the race.

In a week Motorsport has seen two very freak incidents where a driver has been hit flush head with an object from another car. Now one was fatally injured and another was seriously hurt but The the main word in the sentence above is 'freak'. The chances of something like that happening once is very small, twice.....well i cant find a word that describes that. There is almost nothing that can be done to stop things like that happening. We must all remember that all Motorsport is dangerous and that it can never be made 100% safe. While everything can and is being done to make motorsport as safe as possible by making the cars safer stand up better structally and other areas deform so energy is dissipated in big crashes you cant legislate for freak incidences where an odd sequences of events happen. All Motorsport as a whole can do is learn from this and see how to make helmets stronger, which is something that is already happening.

In question to should of Brawn pulled out then no.
The reason Button was so late was to make checks on that area of the car to make sure it was safe and Brawn would never of released the cars if they thought that something was going to happen again. Also with Barrichello it appears that he didn't know something had fell of the car and also nothing could of been done to prevent the spring hitting massa's car has when it fell off massa was just right behind.

On the Alonso issue, well it was negligent, That wheel was never connected properly and he should never of been able to leave the pits, Should he of parked up? You could argue either way but i cannot fault him for not doing that. The difference with Vettel in OZ was that the car was actually damaged alsonso's was not the wheel just came straight off there is no problem for me there iwth then recovering the car back to the pits.
Should Renault be banned for the next GP? No there should be some punishment for releasing Alonso with a loose wheel i think a nice big fat fine would be more fitting of the crime. I think the FIA/stewards (im not sure who has made that call) have over reacted in light of recent events which really is understandable but that doesn't mean its correct
 
It is very unfortunate and harsh for Fernando and Nelson, however I agree with the decision. The wheel behaved itself pretty well, (!) but it could have been a very different outcome.
 

teabagyokel

#dejavu
Valued Member
Bellabella said:
The wheel behaved itself pretty well, (!) but it could have been a very different outcome.
Give that wheel an MBE! I do like the idea that a wheel can "behave", "Yes, I'm coming off Fernando, just drop back from this car so it'll be safe!" They're far nicer than them nasty springs!

Sorry, bella!
 
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