Record breaker Vettels lap

Mephistopheles

Banned
Contributor
I don't see how you can call 15 poles a new record when there are more races to get them in I'm not saying it isn't a great achievement but calling it a record doesn't add up.
 

mjo

Procrastinating
Contributor
I don't see how you can call 15 poles a new record when there are more races to get them in I'm not saying it isn't a great achievement but calling it a record doesn't add up.
15 poles in a season is a record, as no-one has got more in a season. :rolleyes:

But I can see what you mean, but remember, the Williams of 1992 was regularly 1-2 seconds faster than other cars, and Mansell had no real opposition.
 

no-FIAt-please

Champion Elect
Premium Contributor
I still consider 14 out of 16 to be a greater achievement than 15 out of 19.

Yeah but the FW14 was on average over a second faster than any other cars, with Mansell also being about a second faster than Patrese, whereas Vettel has usually only been 3 tenths faster than his opponents. This shows that Vettel hasn't enjoyed the same performance advantage that Mansell had which should count for something, it's a bit like when Mansell said Hamilton's championship wasn't as good as his because there were only 20 cars on the grid on 2008.

This is an excellent article comparing Vettel's and Mansell's record braking seasons.
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2011/11/18/vettel-mansells-14-pole-positions-season-compared/
 

Mephistopheles

Banned
Contributor
15 poles in a season is a record, as no-one has got more in a season. :rolleyes:

But I can see what you mean, but remember, the Williams of 1992 was regularly 1-2 seconds faster than other cars, and Mansell had no real opposition.

In which case if Mansell have had another three races he quite possibly could have scored another three poles, so lets work in percentages.

Vettle 15 from 19 = 78.95%

Mansell 14 from 16 = 87.5%

Mansell wins

:goodday:
 

no-FIAt-please

Champion Elect
Premium Contributor
By that logic a driver who secures pole position in a season of 1 race is better than both Mansell and Vettel.

There is no clear-cut answer as to which season is more impressive, however we can deduce that both are excellent, we should compliment them on this and stop disputing which is superior as it is pointless.
 

The Artist.....

Champion Elect
But.... Suppose there were 30 races in the season (Which isn't beyond the realms of possibility in the long run) - would it really be THAT impressive if a driver scored 15 pole positions? Remember also that Mansell wasn't actually that good a qualifier! In 1991, he was regularly being humbled by Patrese, but was making hay in the races!
 

Mephistopheles

Banned
Contributor
By that logic a driver who secures pole position in a season of 1 race is better than both Mansell and Vettel.

There is no clear-cut answer as to which season is more impressive, however we can deduce that both are excellent, we should compliment them on this and stop disputing which is superior as it is pointless.

Of course :)

On another point I'm sure there were 2 FW14's on the track in 1992.

And I did say it was a great achievement by Vettel my point was that you are not comparing like for like as there were a different number of races and so should not be classed as a record or indeed beating Mansell as it took Vettel 18 races to equal Mansell's total.

This is why there are no such things as world records in the triathlon and the indoor athletics records are not the same as outdoor records and the hundred meters record cannot be counted if there is a tail wind and so on.
 

tranquility2k9

Podium Finisher
First of all Congratulations to Vettel for a record breaking day, by claiming the must poles in a season.

But having watched his Pole Position lap just now all i can see is WOW. This lad could break more records in the future, i can see it happening.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/formula_one/15894215.stm

What I can say from watching that pole lap and it's the same for a lot of the others from Vettel is that that car looks very easy to drive. It turns in exactly how he wants it to and behaves so much better than all the other cars. There is no doubt that Vettel is a master at delivering a very good lap when it counts, but there is also no doubt that the Red Bull is a dream car compared to most others on the grid. I certainly think Vettel deserves a lot of credit for his achievement, but, without a doubt, if he had of had a different team mate such as Hamilton or Rosberg for example, then do you honestly think he'd of achieved so many pole positions? Webber has underperformed in qualifying.

I personally think Vettel's race performances are much more impressive than his qualifying this year. He hasn't had to do an awful amount of overtaking, but the way he has controlled races and stayed calm, I guess in the same way he does during Q3, is the impressive thing.

I guess we will truly see if Vettel is the qualifying master if next year McLaren, Ferrari and Mercedes are closer to Red Bull or even a bit quicker and if he still manages to snatch pole positions, then we will truly know it's down to him.
 

jez101

Bookies drive nice cars because of people like me
Contributor
Whether he broke the record or not, Vettel's qualifying performance has been supreme. You can only beat what is put in front of you. Mansell was awesome, but the FW14B was in my view the beat car ever built. It had traction control and ABS, active suspension and i remember them being not one but two seconds faster in places.

The RB7 is also a class above the field, so ask yourself this: how many poles would Seb have banked in a McLaren? How many would Mansell have scored in something else. Hypothetical, yes :) but perhaps interesting context?
 

Bushi

Pole Sitter
I still consider 14 out of 16 to be a greater achievement than 15 out of 19.

True, but let's not forget that Mansell didn't had to worry if his KERS was gonna work or not. And like some have said the FW14B was a much better car than the rest of the field at that time. He just had to basically turn in and the active suspension would do the rest, so which one is more rewarding?
 

Josh

Champion Elect
I still consider 14 out of 16 to be a greater achievement than 15 out of 19.

If you solely look at the number of races, then yes, I agree with you.

However, do you really think getting 14 pole positions in a car which was frequently 1-2 seconds faster than the opposition is a greater achievement than getting 15 pole positions in a car which was never 1 second faster in qualifying? Vettel's biggest gap to second place this year was 8-tenths (the actual gap was 0.778 seconds, so slightly less than 8-tenths in fact), and that was back in Australia.

I know which one I find more impressive.
 

siffert_fan

Too old to watch the Asian races live.
Contributor
The difference in the number of races in a season skews all season statistics. When Clark was racing, there were 10 or fewer races each year, and the same could be said for Stewart's era. Plus mechanical failure was far more probable in years past. Plus any crash in the old days was quite likely to put you either out of action for a while, or in a hole in the ground.

Comparing statistics from different eras is essentially a meaningless exercise, and the interpretation of them invariably reflects the interpreters' biases.
 

teabagyokel

#dejavu
Valued Member
I think siffert_fan has an excellent point.

We head down dodgy road with this comparison. If you go with the Mansell "less races" theory then you have to give precedence to Alberto Ascari who got 6 poles from 6 attempts (with F2 rules, rather than Indy 500). If you go for "not having a 2 second gap" then there's a hell of a lot of people that have to be considered - take Montoya's 7 poles in 2002 against the F2002 as an example of that.

I think we could argue this 'till we're blue in the face, so its just necessary to congratulate Sebastian Vettel on getting 15 poles this season; regardless of considering it a record, it is one hell of an achievement!
 
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